Thanks for the follow up summary to your prior excellent summary. Let me check the data base of the drives we have in our warehouse inventory that might serve us. ;-) Well assuming we will try to work with what we have... I'll be doing a pass thru the warehouse looking and noting candidates and from that the experts can tell us which drives are the best models. If that yields insufficient options, we'll seek out donations that better apply, or otherwise procure them. I think. :-) On 1/27/2023 11:25 AM, David Ryskalczyk via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
One bit I missed below:
As VCF already has an Applesauce that can be used with single-sided single-density 5.25" disks and (depending on drive attached) 3.5" disks, which would cover a reasonable range of the computers in the museum, it could be put into production immediately, without needing to upgrade the device. Updating the software is sufficient to provide write functionality.
The main disadvantage of the v1 Applesauce is that it can only connect to Apple drives. Apple never produced a 5.25" double-sided or high-density drive that connected to their interface — or for that matter an 8" drive. While there were a few clone drives that did have these capabilities, they are extremely rare. This is resolved with the v2 upgrade, which adds a 34-pin floppy port.
Apple-interface drives require an index sensor for optimal operation; PC-interface drives generally have a sufficient one built-in.
Disk ][ 5.25" drives are capable of reading and writing most SSSD 5.25" disks. The one disadvantage is that they are limited to 35-37 tracks, which in my understanding mainly affects Atari 8-bit computers. Many clone drives did not have this limit, and there may be some in the warehouse. The later Apple 5.25" Drive (19-pin connector) is a lot less flexible as it has tighter analog filters.
Regarding the 3.5" drive: I am uncertain what drive is set up with the Applesauce at the museum. The best option is the Apple G7287 FDHD drive, which allows the Applesauce to handle and 3.5" disk. An A9M0106 Apple drive with the internal mechanism swapped to a 1.44MB FDHD drive is functionally identical. These do require an additional index sensor for ideal operation as while one is built-in to the drive, it is insufficient.
As the cost of either one of those external drives has been increasing, a new option is the "Naked Mac Drive Adapter" which allows one to connect an internal Apple drive directly to the Applesauce.
David
On Jan 27, 2023, at 11:13 AM, David Ryskalczyk <d235j.1@gmail.com> wrote:
The Applesauce is the only option that has a very easy-to-use GUI that can easily be taught to people who are not familiar or comfortable with command-line. It also has very good support from the developer. As far as I am aware, it is the only device capable of writing copy-protected disks with advanced forms of copy protection such as spiral tracking, though that part is an advanced feature that requires an understanding of copy protection and some manual analysis to mark up start- and stop-write markers.
The Applesauce also has a fast imager that is extremely useful for data recovery of non-copy-protected disks, as it minimizes the time that the disk is being read. Additionally, for most formats the Applesauce software is capable of read-only parsing of the filesystem and file extraction. This functionality is leveraged for verification of data in the fast imager.
Applesauce (hardware and software) does require a relatively modern Mac as its host computer. For some that has been a roadblock.
The other available options are:
Kryoflux — extremely expensive institutional license would be required (multiple thousands of dollars per year), potential legal minefield with their institutional agreement (potentially forbidding the use of other options) Supercard Pro — Inexpensive, limited format support Greaseweazle — Inexpensive, open source, good product, CLI interface that is not all that easy to use. Would be highly recommended to have one or more for data recovery and advanced use FluxEngine — Open source, software works with Greaseweazle with no caveats, so it makes the Greaseweazle even more useful for data recovery and advanced use HxC Pauline — Expensive, open source, limited availability, no write support now or soon (they seem more interested in drive emulation)
Legacy methods: ImageDisk, Anadisk, old hardware — these all rely on having working older hardware. ImageDisk is less flexible than Applesauce (or for that matter Greaseweazle) as it relies on the capabilities of the PC floppy disk controller, and Applesauce (or Greaseweazle) can write IMDs.
As the needs here involve writing out new disks that will then be used in museum computers, the only other option here that is at all viable is the Greaseweazle — or one of the legacy methods.
As VCF already has an Applesauce that can be used with single-sided single-density 5.25" disks and 3.5" disks, which would cover A list of formats supported by the Applesauce — likely out of date, more formats keep getting added — is here: https://applesaucefdc.com/what-is-applesauce/
Since Herb mentioned floppy replacement technology and that it comes and goes across periods of years, here is some feedback on that:
As for floppy replacement technology, the go-to for PC-style interfaces is the FlashFloppy firmware for the Gotek floppy drive emulators, as well as improved Gotek clones. This firmware is open source and has wide format support. The other option is the HxC emulator firmware, which supports some additional formats and also runs on Gotek emulators, but is sold and is not open source. For other computers and floppy interfaces, it is really on a per-machine basis, so devices do come and go.
David
On Jan 27, 2023, at 11:08 AM, Sentrytv via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
From: Sentrytv <sentrytv@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [vcf-midatlantic] Seeking Applesauce FDC testimonials - museum use Date: January 27, 2023 at 11:08:41 AM EST To: vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org>
Personally, maybe a Seminar / class on basics and then get into the details. Getting to know the hardware, the capabilities, then actually doing some disk imaging and creating.
Sent from: My extremely complicated, hand held electronic device.
On Jan 27, 2023, at 10:33 AM, David Gesswein via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
Would it be better if a couple people could cover the current options or in depth on just the Applesauce?
On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 04:40:41PM -0500, Douglas Crawford via vcf-midatlantic wrote: Yep. Probably time to do that. It was covered at VCF East classes some years. Maybe time to do it again. Could do it at a workshop too.
On 1/26/2023 3:29 PM, Sentrytv wrote: Hey here’s an idea.
For those people who don’t know and are willing to learn about Applesauce and reading / writing old discs.
How about having a Workshop/seminar on this topic and a having a full demonstration and class about it?
Mike Rosen
Sent from: My extremely complicated, hand held electronic device.
> On Jan 26, 2023, at 3:23 PM, Douglas Crawford via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote: > > Follow up- > > David R. gave me a generous amount of time today on the phone > and its clear to me expanding our Applesauce > allow attachment of an IBM type 5 1/4" and 8" drives > will cover some high 90% of disk creating that we need > in the museum. It will provide a single method/user interface > that enable non-expert users to create needed media > from images on demand across most all the micros in the > museum- Apple, Atari, Amiga, PC, CP/M. > > I plan to get more familiar with the Applesause system > and the support facilities available. Soon I will > gather the upgrade and extra materials we would need > to account for everything to make the expanded system. > Following that, we will assemble the pieces and work up the > functional capabilities at workshops. > > FYI- > Media preservation/data recovery is a different effort > and will follow this effort. It would likely > be located in the warehouse. I anticipate using a similar > applesause system for as much as we can, and augment with > whatever other systems necessary things it cannot do. > Hopefully folks really interested in working this part > of the operation will be able to come forward for lending > expertise. > >> On 1/25/2023 7:04 PM, Alexander Jacocks wrote: >> Doug, >> AppleSauce is quite a flexible disk imaging and creating system. John Morris has expanded the tool far beyond its original purpose of Apple II disk management. >> I have used it to create disks of quite a number of formats, and find that it works as described, and is far easier to use than most other imaging tools. >> Additionally, John is quite receptive to requests for new formats and features. >> - Alex >>>> On Jan 25, 2023, at 2:03 PM, Douglas Crawford via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote: >>> >>> I'm wondering how comprehensive a solution it >>> has become and how well it works on all supported >>> formats. >>> >>> If anyone recommends it from first hand experience for >>> doing all the disk formats that it is supposed do, >>> please contact me off list. >>> >>> (I have done disk image management with all the varied >>> tools but if Applesause does it all well with one package >>> I may go this way for the museum and warehouse use. I >>> need to know before I set up all the old stand-byes to >>> support our disk imaging) >>> >>> - Doug Crawford >>> VCF Museum Mgr