From: SMTP%"vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org" 22-MAY-2017 11:07:00.75 To: vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> CC: Dave McGuire <mcguire@neurotica.com> Subj: Re: [vcf-midatlantic] obsolescence of a language, was Re: COBOL Return-Path: vcf-midatlantic-bounces@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org Received: from mailmanlists.network (192.34.61.247) by great-escape.tmesis.com (V5.7-ECO3, OpenVMS V8.4 Alpha); Mon, 22 May 2017 11:07:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.34.61.247] (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mailmanlists.network (Postfix) with ESMTP id 412EF21372; Mon, 22 May 2017 11:06:28 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org; s=mail; t=1495465588; bh=mGaVWLEfX5XbSoUQ0Q2IZ4eF9ddjpjhL9B0c3tlzrRM=; h=To:References:Date:In-Reply-To:Subject:List-Id:List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive:List-Post:List-Help:List-Subscribe:From:Reply-To:Cc: From; b=ItCSTX+0ziJNkfJ0cDjMqnIwA8TzJ8Cpcr/Mmjy59JG2mLFJ7HihGbzHtUWoOB5Wy nMDjQrPJyd3LOE/EYKziTL2MJQdic62LWE/TrDOJuI4WG9sNIqbBg++d+QtacoA03f n/K/b9uZJnZfcgye8cyqdXI1jZGT8uk+1RMSa4PY= X-Original-To: vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org Delivered-To: vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org Received: from mail.neurotica.com (mail.neurotica.com [50.73.179.3]) by mailmanlists.network (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B44B4211A9 for <vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org>; Mon, 22 May 2017 11:06:26 -0400 (EDT) Authentication-Results: mailmanlists.network; dkim=pass (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=neurotica.com header.i=@neurotica.com header.b=AbhDIWvn; dkim-atps=neutral Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.neurotica.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EC14D95 for <vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org>; Mon, 22 May 2017 11:06:26 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at neurotica.com Received: from mail.neurotica.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.neurotica.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 78N-94myGo8G for <vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org>; Mon, 22 May 2017 11:06:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.15] (gw.neurotica.com [50.73.179.1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: mcguire@neurotica.com) by mail.neurotica.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id AF924D94 for <vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org>; Mon, 22 May 2017 11:06:24 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=neurotica.com; s=default; t=1495465584; bh=mGaVWLEfX5XbSoUQ0Q2IZ4eF9ddjpjhL9B0c3tlzrRM=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=AbhDIWvnsOC0AR9Ahe2Dl1pV/WXz6mdMoo2IH1rliZkcwtYs869a4V2braahHEycL OCt/tFPSTmIzRJqpkKKI/ErWDIJ0E+XI3jVuiWXjZ0ToRBm8SVhXvw8aHCpE+6lFCt fr4ARz0FnAM4e0KFh7LHWGjLDjJ/K/XSLQR7NsCg= To: vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> References: <17052211014274_23607106@tmesis.com> Message-ID: <6cf84d25-6e17-0532-07be-35b5b25f04b5@neurotica.com> Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 11:06:23 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <17052211014274_23607106@tmesis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [vcf-midatlantic] obsolescence of a language, was Re: COBOL X-BeenThere: vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic.lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org/mailman/options/vcf-midatlantic>, <mailto:vcf-midatlantic-request@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org/pipermail/vcf-midatlantic/> List-Post: <mailto:vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> List-Help: <mailto:vcf-midatlantic-request@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org/mailman/listinfo/vcf-midatlantic>, <mailto:vcf-midatlantic-request@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org?subject=subscribe> From: Dave McGuire via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> Reply-To: vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> Cc: Dave McGuire <mcguire@neurotica.com> Errors-To: vcf-midatlantic-bounces@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org Sender: "vcf-midatlantic" <vcf-midatlantic-bounces@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> Dave McGuire via vcf-midatlantic writes:
On 05/22/2017 11:01 AM, Brian Schenkenberger via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
I'm not sure I'd even say that. While COBOL generally makes me want to vomit, and that's a common position, that's not the point. Organizations are using it for a reason: It's the right tool for their job, based on whatever criteria they've set forth. I really don't think it's up to any of us to assert that they're wrong.
But apart from that, what would be the motivation for declaring its obsolescence? I assume the big deal is age. So, what's the cutoff age for modern vs. "obsolete", when it comes to a language? Note that I'm not talking about implementations of the language, but the language itself, as the COBOL compilers in common use today are current, modern, maintained products. C++ is 35 years old, C is 45, Java is about 20 I think. All have seen recent standardization activity, and all have seen recent development in implementations. Just like COBOL.
I don't think there's much that's necessarily "new" or "old" about a language for representing and expressing data structures and algorithms, in cases where the language specification has continued to evolve. Yes, newer techniques (object-oriented programming) and newer habits (long identifier names, use of lowercase characters, column independence) come into being, but these languages continue to evolve to take advantage of them. Modern COBOL implements those newer things, specifically, along with many others.
Object Oriented COBOL. <ducks!>
Yup. Terrifying, isn't it? The last time I found programming that distasteful, I was writing x86 assembler. Really, computer programming just doesn't have to be that bad! Writing PDP-11 assembler, by comparison, is like listening to a symphony.
;) People who have never touched PDP or VAX assembly don't know what they're missing. 8080/x86 assembly, bleachk! If that is they're introduction to assembly language programming, I can understand their typical disdain. Now, if C only had Macros. ;)