There are a lot of other computers that have a 40th this year. Northstar Horizon comes to mind, but many others. Plus PDP 11/04 /34 /45 /55. Atari 2600....
On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 9:50 PM, Evan Koblentz via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
There are a lot of other computers that have a 40th this year. Northstar
Horizon comes to mind, but many others. Plus PDP 11/04 /34 /45 /55. Atari 2600....
Can't all be teams though. :)
An exhibit about just the 2600 would not be on-topic for VCF.
Unless it included the JOLT computer 2600 was prototype or similar tie-in. My point though was just that if someone was thinking of exhibiting something, there are other 40th's that one could choose, including the list that I pulled from my head. I could be wrong about the PDP's being 1977, they might have been 1976.
But if you look at the difference between the mini's and micro's of that age, I really could see things like the Atari 2600 being an exhibit. As the early gaming consoles also brought many different microprocessors into the home. And had just as much to do with ushering in the digital age as general purpose computer systems. Just because they're "dedicated" to home entertainment that's no reason to really exclude them. Although I would see limiting the number of exhibitors, and requiring the exhibitor to come up with a theme for their exhibit. An example could be like when I did my "Basically it's BASIC" exhibit. The Atari 2600 does have a cartridge version of BASIC, that people could write programs with. Or maybe an exhibit "Flight Simulators throughout the years" as an example, and have a mixture of both game consoles and computer systems. But no matter how one looks at it, gaming consoles have been integral in the development and popularity of computers. On Saturday, December 17, 2016, william degnan via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 9:50 PM, Evan Koblentz via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org <javascript:;>> wrote:
There are a lot of other computers that have a 40th this year. Northstar
Horizon comes to mind, but many others. Plus PDP 11/04 /34 /45 /55. Atari 2600....
Can't all be teams though. :)
An exhibit about just the 2600 would not be on-topic for VCF.
Unless it included the JOLT computer 2600 was prototype or similar tie-in. My point though was just that if someone was thinking of exhibiting something, there are other 40th's that one could choose, including the list that I pulled from my head. I could be wrong about the PDP's being 1977, they might have been 1976.
-- Normal Person: Hey, it seems that you know a lot. Geek: To be honest, it's due to all the surfing I do. Normal Person: So you go surfing? Normal Person: But I don't think that has anything to do with knowing a lot... Geek: I think that's wrong on a fundamental level. Normal Person: Huh? Huh? What?
An example could be like when I did my "Basically it's BASIC" exhibit. The Atari 2600 does have a cartridge version of BASIC, that people could write programs with. Or maybe an exhibit "Flight Simulators throughout the years" as an example, and have a mixture of both game consoles and computer systems.
I agree, but those are examples where the 2600 is one part of a exhibit on a different theme.
But no matter how one looks at it, gaming consoles have been integral in the development and popularity of computers.
Of course. What we're avoiding are exhibits devoted entirely or mostly to console gaming. That's a whole other hobby (bigger than ours in some ways). Just because they used microprocessors is not enough -- so did a lot of products.
Well, the other thing is that "about" 11 video game consoles came out in 1977. Though many of them were little more than variations on the various pong type machines. But there were a couple expandable (aka Cartridge based) consoles that came out in 1977. The Atari 2600 and the RCA Studio II, the Fairchild Channel F actually came out in 1976. In regards to the hobby being bigger than ours in some ways, most collectors of game consoles don't have a physical venue to display their systems. The majority of events where vintage gaming is seen tend to be sales. So instead of people hobbyists displaying exhibits, you have vendors selling them. Often knowing very little about them short of the price they're selling for on eBay. So there is a significant difference between the type of venues. On Saturday, December 17, 2016, Evan Koblentz via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
An example could be like when I did my "Basically it's BASIC" exhibit. The Atari 2600 does have a cartridge version of BASIC, that people could write programs with. Or maybe an exhibit "Flight Simulators throughout the years" as an example, and have a mixture of both game consoles and computer systems.
I agree, but those are examples where the 2600 is one part of a exhibit on a different theme.
But no matter how one looks at it, gaming consoles have been integral in the development and popularity of computers.
Of course.
What we're avoiding are exhibits devoted entirely or mostly to console gaming. That's a whole other hobby (bigger than ours in some ways). Just because they used microprocessors is not enough -- so did a lot of products.
-- Normal Person: Hey, it seems that you know a lot. Geek: To be honest, it's due to all the surfing I do. Normal Person: So you go surfing? Normal Person: But I don't think that has anything to do with knowing a lot... Geek: I think that's wrong on a fundamental level. Normal Person: Huh? Huh? What?
I would say that it would be very cool to have an Atari exhibit, and the 2600 world not be completely out of place from a historic context, as the technology in it (in particular, the TIA) was the progenitor of the Atari 400/800 and Amiga. But significant as it was, it would not be part of the "Trinity". On Sat, Dec 17, 2016 at 10:55 AM Joseph Oprysko via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
Well, the other thing is that "about" 11 video game consoles came out in
1977. Though many of them were little more than variations on the various
pong type machines. But there were a couple expandable (aka Cartridge
based) consoles that came out in 1977. The Atari 2600 and the RCA Studio
II, the Fairchild Channel F actually came out in 1976.
In regards to the hobby being bigger than ours in some ways, most
collectors of game consoles don't have a physical venue to display their
systems. The majority of events where vintage gaming is seen tend to be
sales. So instead of people hobbyists displaying exhibits, you have vendors
selling them. Often knowing very little about them short of the price
they're selling for on eBay. So there is a significant difference between
the type of venues.
On Saturday, December 17, 2016, Evan Koblentz via vcf-midatlantic <
vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
An example could be like when I did my "Basically it's BASIC" exhibit.
The
Atari 2600 does have a cartridge version of BASIC, that people could write
programs with. Or maybe an exhibit "Flight Simulators throughout the years"
as an example, and have a mixture of both game consoles and computer
systems.
I agree, but those are examples where the 2600 is one part of a exhibit on
a different theme.
But no matter how one looks at it, gaming consoles have been integral in
the development and popularity of computers.
Of course.
What we're avoiding are exhibits devoted entirely or mostly to console
gaming. That's a whole other hobby (bigger than ours in some ways). Just
because they used microprocessors is not enough -- so did a lot of products.
--
Normal Person: Hey, it seems that you know a lot.
Geek: To be honest, it's due to all the surfing I do.
Normal Person: So you go surfing?
Normal Person: But I don't think that has anything to do with knowing a
lot...
Geek: I think that's wrong on a fundamental level.
Normal Person: Huh? Huh? What?
I would say that it would be very cool to have an Atari exhibit, and the 2600 world not be completely out of place from a historic context, as the technology in it (in particular, the TIA) was the progenitor of the Atari 400/800 and Amiga.
Yes; what I'm saying is an exhibit about * only * game consoles wouldn't fit in. There has to be more to it than "it used a microprocessor and computer people like games".
But significant as it was, it would not be part of the "Trinity".
Nor are most of VCF East XII exhibits. :)
On Dec 17, 2016, at 11:09 AM, Evan Koblentz via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
I would say that it would be very cool to have an Atari exhibit, and the 2600 world not be completely out of place from a historic context, as the technology in it (in particular, the TIA) was the progenitor of the Atari 400/800 and Amiga.
Yes; what I'm saying is an exhibit about * only * game consoles wouldn't fit in. There has to be more to it than "it used a microprocessor and computer people like games".
If someone else is interested, one of my ideas for my personal exhibit this coming VCF was to show computers and consoles that shared the same (or the same family) processors. Partly to show the different things done with them and partly to show how the same Processors were used in more than one type of appliance and to show the different directions the home electronics went in (computers vs dedicated gaming consoles) hell right through the PowerPC from '92 (relevant to vintage computing still....somewhat...:-) You have variants of the PowerPC running GameCube, Xbox 360, PS3 all the way back to Zilog z80 in the colecovision, 6502 in The Atari 5200 (the 2600 was a 650x something too wasn't it?) You get the point. I was trying to think of a way to combine my passion for computers and consoles into a display. Anyone wants to run with the idea I'll gladly donate hardware if I have it. (Computers and consoles) The Mega Apple Display is likely going to preclude me from doing a personal exhibit because of time and hardware constraints. Tony
I know that I'm "pushing" the vintage console front, but likely, with the Apple Mega exhibit, it's likely that I wouldn't be able to do one this year either. My main point is that unlike appliances that used microprocessors (scopes, meters, manufacturing control systems). Gaming consoles have always been "computers". Not just a computerized component of a larger device. Yes, just because something has a microprocessor in it doesn't make it a computer. But that's more seen in more modern appliances, TV's, Air Conditioners, refrigerators, even coffee makers. Now even light bulbs have processors in them. But I wouldn't call my GE Wink LED bulb a "computer". But would I call my PS4/XBOX a computer? Yes. But again, far from vintage.. On Saturday, December 17, 2016, Tony Bogan via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
On Dec 17, 2016, at 11:09 AM, Evan Koblentz via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org <javascript:;>> wrote:
I would say that it would be very cool to have an Atari exhibit, and the 2600 world not be completely out of place from a historic context, as the technology in it (in particular, the TIA) was the progenitor of the Atari 400/800 and Amiga.
Yes; what I'm saying is an exhibit about * only * game consoles wouldn't fit in. There has to be more to it than "it used a microprocessor and computer people like games".
If someone else is interested, one of my ideas for my personal exhibit this coming VCF was to show computers and consoles that shared the same (or the same family) processors. Partly to show the different things done with them and partly to show how the same Processors were used in more than one type of appliance and to show the different directions the home electronics went in (computers vs dedicated gaming consoles)
hell right through the PowerPC from '92 (relevant to vintage computing still....somewhat...:-) You have variants of the PowerPC running GameCube, Xbox 360, PS3 all the way back to Zilog z80 in the colecovision, 6502 in The Atari 5200 (the 2600 was a 650x something too wasn't it?)
You get the point. I was trying to think of a way to combine my passion for computers and consoles into a display.
Anyone wants to run with the idea I'll gladly donate hardware if I have it. (Computers and consoles) The Mega Apple Display is likely going to preclude me from doing a personal exhibit because of time and hardware constraints. Tony
-- Normal Person: Hey, it seems that you know a lot. Geek: To be honest, it's due to all the surfing I do. Normal Person: So you go surfing? Normal Person: But I don't think that has anything to do with knowing a lot... Geek: I think that's wrong on a fundamental level. Normal Person: Huh? Huh? What?
1) the earliest consoles were ttl not microprocessors. Trivia question. . What was the first game console with a real microprocessor? 2) these mega exhibits ... how big? Any restrictions by date, purpose, or use? Emphasis on appliance computers and home computers or just everything ever made by the manufacturer? Shouldn't we want to tie in with the 40th anniversary of the appliance computer somehow, even if loosely? Evan can you provide guidance here? 3) We normally avoid exhibits solely of items newer than 1990, I don't think any exhibit with Xbox and a Game cube is on topic Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net
these mega exhibits ... how big? Any restrictions by date, purpose, or use? Emphasis on appliance computers and home computers or just everything ever made by the manufacturer Shouldn't we want to tie in with the 40th anniversary of the appliance computer somehow, even if loosely? Evan can you provide guidance here?
I envision each team having 5, 6, 7 tables... whatever they need.... the '77 machines should be the stars, but timeline around them would be cool .... I want to see creative displays.
On Sat, Dec 17, 2016 at 3:20 PM, Evan Koblentz via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
these mega exhibits ... how big? Any restrictions by date, purpose, or use? Emphasis on appliance computers and home computers or just everything ever made by the manufacturer Shouldn't we want to tie in with the 40th anniversary of the appliance computer somehow, even if loosely? Evan can you provide guidance here?
I envision each team having 5, 6, 7 tables... whatever they need.... the '77 machines should be the stars, but timeline around them would be cool .... I want to see creative displays.
hmm, just curious how you plan to squeeze in at least 5 tables per Team exhibit. Meaning 15 tables in total space within the same exhibit rooms. That's about the size of the dining room just for the Teams. Was there some new space that hasn't been revealed to us before this ? just wondering out loud
Dan you are starting to sound like Evan ;) He often says "Thinking out loud ...". On Sat, Dec 17, 2016 at 5:21 PM, Dan Roganti via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
On Sat, Dec 17, 2016 at 3:20 PM, Evan Koblentz via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
these mega exhibits ... how big? Any restrictions by date, purpose, or use? Emphasis on appliance computers and home computers or just everything ever made by the manufacturer Shouldn't we want to tie in with the 40th anniversary of the appliance computer somehow, even if loosely? Evan can you provide guidance here?
I envision each team having 5, 6, 7 tables... whatever they need.... the '77 machines should be the stars, but timeline around them would be cool .... I want to see creative displays.
hmm, just curious how you plan to squeeze in at least 5 tables per Team exhibit. Meaning 15 tables in total space within the same exhibit rooms. That's about the size of the dining room just for the Teams. Was there some new space that hasn't been revealed to us before this ? just wondering out loud
-- Jeff Brace - ark72axow@gmail.com
just curious how you plan to squeeze in at least 5 tables per Team exhibit. Meaning 15 tables in total space within the same exhibit rooms. That's about the size of the dining room just for the Teams. Was there some new space that hasn't been revealed to us before this ? just wondering out loud
Two ways. First, with 15-18 people on three teams, there would naturally be fewer regular exhibits. Second, yes, there are new rooms available now! We haven't decided which parts of the show will be in which rooms, but now we have use of the rooms in the building where we held Festivus -- you were there. This also means no more tent.
On Sat, Dec 17, 2016 at 6:17 PM, Evan Koblentz via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
just curious how you plan to squeeze in at least 5 tables per Team exhibit. Meaning 15 tables in total space within the same exhibit rooms. That's about the size of the dining room just for the Teams. Was there some new space that hasn't been revealed to us before this ? just wondering out loud
Two ways. First, with 15-18 people on three teams, there would naturally be fewer regular exhibits. Second, yes, there are new rooms available now! We haven't decided which parts of the show will be in which rooms, but now we have use of the rooms in the building where we held Festivus -- you were there. This also means no more tent.
aahh, interesting those new rooms are very nice
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 17, 2016, at 2:24 PM, william degnan via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
1) the earliest consoles were ttl not microprocessors. Trivia question. . What was the first game console with a real microprocessor?
2) these mega exhibits ... how big? Any restrictions by date, purpose, or use? Emphasis on appliance computers and home computers or just everything ever made by the manufacturer? Shouldn't we want to tie in with the 40th anniversary of the appliance computer somehow, even if loosely? Evan can you provide guidance here?
3) We normally avoid exhibits solely of items newer than 1990, I don't think any exhibit with Xbox and a Game cube is on topic
It was more an example than anything else to drive home the point that since the 2600 microprocessors have been used in computers AND dedicated gaming consoles. The early consoles were ttl. I'm confident you are aware that the earliest consoles, like the earliest computers, are not the only things that would be considered vintage and fit within the time frame of prior to 1990. Besides, in referencing colecovision and Atari 2600 and 5200 I fail to see where my comments could, even stretching to the limit, be construed as suggesting an exhibit of xboxes and gamecubes. Many processor based consoles are 30 or more years old and directly inline with our vintage computing hobby AND classic consoles etc. and use the same processors or ones from the same families as the very machines displayed in mine and many others exhibits at previous VCF's. An exhibit would and should focus on the vintage. However, making reference to the fact that even today's consoles use processors that originated almost two decades ago is not only logical but helps tie in the present with the past. Something I believe we should strive to do whenever possible to both keep existing and generate new interest in our favorite pastime/hobby/obsession :-) If my comments made it sound like I was suggesting someone should have an exhibit of xboxes and gamecubes I apologize. Next time I will try to make the point of my emails less obfuscated. Tony
3) We normally avoid exhibits solely of items newer than 1990, I don't think any exhibit with Xbox and a Game cube is on topic
It was more an example than anything else to drive home the point that since the 2600 microprocessors have been used in computers AND dedicated gaming consoles. The early consoles were ttl. I'm confident you are aware that the earliest consoles, like the earliest computers, are not the only things that would be considered vintage and fit within the time frame of prior to 1990. Besides, in referencing colecovision and Atari 2600 and 5200 I fail to see where my comments could, even stretching to the limit, be construed as suggesting an exhibit of xboxes and gamecubes.
<snip>
If my comments made it sound like I was suggesting someone should have an exhibit of xboxes and gamecubes I apologize. Next time I will try to make the point of my emails less obfuscated. Tony
I was not responding to you I don't think, at least not intentionally. Sorry about the confusion. I think a 6502 exhibit, for example, with a little bit of console is just fine with me. Really I was saying IF you were to have consoles, don't include new ones. I was not saying don't have consoles. AND I was saying that not all consoles have a microprocessor. The old Odyssey pongs and such are actually pretty cool vintage computing devices and I'd love to see an exhibit like that, maybe teamed up with a tv typewriter or something. Bill
On Dec 17, 2016, at 3:34 PM, william degnan via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
3) We normally avoid exhibits solely of items newer than 1990, I don't think any exhibit with Xbox and a Game cube is on topic
It was more an example than anything else to drive home the point that since the 2600 microprocessors have been used in computers AND dedicated gaming consoles. The early consoles were ttl. I'm confident you are aware that the earliest consoles, like the earliest computers, are not the only things that would be considered vintage and fit within the time frame of prior to 1990. Besides, in referencing colecovision and Atari 2600 and 5200 I fail to see where my comments could, even stretching to the limit, be construed as suggesting an exhibit of xboxes and gamecubes.
<snip>
If my comments made it sound like I was suggesting someone should have an exhibit of xboxes and gamecubes I apologize. Next time I will try to make the point of my emails less obfuscated. Tony
I was not responding to you I don't think, at least not intentionally. Sorry about the confusion.
I think a 6502 exhibit, for example, with a little bit of console is just fine with me.
Really I was saying IF you were to have consoles, don't include new ones. I was not saying don't have consoles. AND I was saying that not all consoles have a microprocessor. The old Odyssey pongs and such are actually pretty cool vintage computing devices and I'd love to see an exhibit like that, maybe teamed up with a tv typewriter or something.
Bill
Gotcha. That was my email that specifically mentioned the PowerPC and Xbox/GameCube, so figured I just did a piss poor job of making my point! :-) I finally found my original telegames pong fro Childhood (had been lost when i moved years ago...found in my attic!!) As we had talked about at festivus I'd still like to do something with all the old consoles and machines but, perhaps next year! Tony
participants (8)
-
Dan Roganti -
Dave McGuire -
Dean Notarnicola -
Evan Koblentz -
Jeffrey Brace -
Joseph Oprysko -
Tony Bogan -
william degnan