Re: [vcf-midatlantic] WTB: DECbrouter
From: Neil Cherry <ncherry@linuxha.com>
How about an AT&T BRouter? I think it's a Cisco CGS (the smaller of the 3). I think it's running a 9.x code (might be 10, I hope not).
IGS was the small one, no? Fixed 1 port net and 1 port wan? Sorta evolved into the 3000 series. CGS & MGS were in the middle and AGS was the big one. Last IGS I had ran IOS 8.x. Of course, you mention CGS now and it's the Cisco Gateway Switch. KJ
On 06/27/2017 12:26 PM, - - via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
Hehe, I forgot about the IGS (not my favorite router). The IGS wasn't one of the 68K line. I think it was one of the first 4K (RISC) processors. I think the IGS also went to 10.x. but don't quote me on that.
The IGS is built around a 68020. It's what grew into the 3000 (mostly the same but the case is blue instead of cream/white), which in turn was updated a bit and shrunk to become the famous 2500 series. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 12:26 PM, - - <ncherry@linuxha.com> wrote:
(Stuck on a web interface to main, so excude the top posting)
Hehe, I forgot about the IGS (not my favorite router). The IGS wasn't one of the 68K line. I think it was one of the first 4K (RISC) processors. I think the IGS also went to 10.x. but don't quote me on that.
No. The IGS was contemporary with the AGS/MGS/CGS and it's 68k based. The first MIPS based routers (3600 & 7200?) were at least 2 generations away (on the low end, the 3000 (?) then the 2500 series came after, and were also 68k based). I know my IGS (long gone) ran IOS 8.x (upgraded from 6.x as I recall), and there was 9.x update that involved swapping PROMs. Never saw 10 on an IGS; that would have been a very, very tight fit since the IGS only had 1 or 2M RAM. Pretty sure 10.x ran on the AGS+ if you had enough memory. Played around with IOS 15.5 the other day...times have changed. KJ
On 06/27/2017 01:21 PM, Kenneth Seefried via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
Hehe, I forgot about the IGS (not my favorite router). The IGS wasn't one of the 68K line. I think it was one of the first 4K (RISC) processors. I think the IGS also went to 10.x. but don't quote me on that.
No. The IGS was contemporary with the AGS/MGS/CGS and it's 68k based. The first MIPS based routers (3600 & 7200?) were at least 2 generations away (on the low end, the 3000 (?) then the 2500 series came after, and were also 68k based).
The 4500 was the first MIPS-based Cisco router I saw. While I don't know that it was the first, it does predate the 3600 and 7200 families by quite a few years. It followed the 4000, which was 68K-based.
I know my IGS (long gone) ran IOS 8.x (upgraded from 6.x as I recall), and there was 9.x update that involved swapping PROMs. Never saw 10 on an IGS; that would have been a very, very tight fit since the IGS only had 1 or 2M RAM. Pretty sure 10.x ran on the AGS+ if you had enough memory.
10.x can indeed run on the AGS+. I've never seen it on any smaller *GS router.
Played around with IOS 15.5 the other day...times have changed.
Yeah but it's still IOS, and still looks a whole lot like TOPS-20. :-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
curious, but can't a VAX of even a modern box of some sort be rigged to act as a router for this kind of thing? Admittedly just asking not knowledgeable enough to answer this question myself.. On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 2:43 PM, Dave McGuire via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
On 06/27/2017 01:21 PM, Kenneth Seefried via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
Hehe, I forgot about the IGS (not my favorite router). The IGS wasn't one of the 68K line. I think it was one of the first 4K (RISC) processors. I think the IGS also went to 10.x. but don't quote me on that.
No. The IGS was contemporary with the AGS/MGS/CGS and it's 68k based. The first MIPS based routers (3600 & 7200?) were at least 2 generations away (on the low end, the 3000 (?) then the 2500 series came after, and were also 68k based).
The 4500 was the first MIPS-based Cisco router I saw. While I don't know that it was the first, it does predate the 3600 and 7200 families by quite a few years. It followed the 4000, which was 68K-based.
I know my IGS (long gone) ran IOS 8.x (upgraded from 6.x as I recall), and there was 9.x update that involved swapping PROMs. Never saw 10 on an IGS; that would have been a very, very tight fit since the IGS only had 1 or 2M RAM. Pretty sure 10.x ran on the AGS+ if you had enough memory.
10.x can indeed run on the AGS+. I've never seen it on any smaller *GS router.
Played around with IOS 15.5 the other day...times have changed.
Yeah but it's still IOS, and still looks a whole lot like TOPS-20. :-)
-Dave
-- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
On 06/27/2017 02:55 PM, william degnan via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
curious, but can't a VAX of even a modern box of some sort be rigged to act as a router for this kind of thing? Admittedly just asking not knowledgeable enough to answer this question myself..
That depends on the type of interfaces you want to route between. Some of the earliest routers were PDP-11s. If you need to route something like a T1 or T3 line, that's pretty tough to do on anything but a purpose-built router due to support for those types of hardware interfaces. Further, for more modern circuits like OC192s, etc, there really aren't too many general-purpose computers available that can move data that fast in any predictable or consistent way, and nothing anywhere near as reliable or internally redundant as something like a big Cisco or Juniper machine. They exist with their six-figure price tags for a reason. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
I was thinking the load was light enough for what the OP was looking to do. b On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 3:00 PM, Dave McGuire via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
On 06/27/2017 02:55 PM, william degnan via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
curious, but can't a VAX of even a modern box of some sort be rigged to act as a router for this kind of thing? Admittedly just asking not knowledgeable enough to answer this question myself..
That depends on the type of interfaces you want to route between. Some of the earliest routers were PDP-11s.
If you need to route something like a T1 or T3 line, that's pretty tough to do on anything but a purpose-built router due to support for those types of hardware interfaces. Further, for more modern circuits like OC192s, etc, there really aren't too many general-purpose computers available that can move data that fast in any predictable or consistent way, and nothing anywhere near as reliable or internally redundant as something like a big Cisco or Juniper machine. They exist with their six-figure price tags for a reason.
-Dave
-- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
The first post in this thread could've been last year, as far as my brain is concerned today. ;) Was he planning to route between hardware interfaces that are reasonable to obtain on something other than a router? -Dave On 06/27/2017 03:05 PM, william degnan via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
I was thinking the load was light enough for what the OP was looking to do. b
On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 3:00 PM, Dave McGuire via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
On 06/27/2017 02:55 PM, william degnan via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
curious, but can't a VAX of even a modern box of some sort be rigged to act as a router for this kind of thing? Admittedly just asking not knowledgeable enough to answer this question myself..
That depends on the type of interfaces you want to route between. Some of the earliest routers were PDP-11s.
If you need to route something like a T1 or T3 line, that's pretty tough to do on anything but a purpose-built router due to support for those types of hardware interfaces. Further, for more modern circuits like OC192s, etc, there really aren't too many general-purpose computers available that can move data that fast in any predictable or consistent way, and nothing anywhere near as reliable or internally redundant as something like a big Cisco or Juniper machine. They exist with their six-figure price tags for a reason.
-Dave
-- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
-- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
lol. I am lost too. I am going to back to programming. Sometimes I come up for air and bite at the worm in these threads. On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 3:07 PM, Dave McGuire via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
The first post in this thread could've been last year, as far as my brain is concerned today. ;) Was he planning to route between hardware interfaces that are reasonable to obtain on something other than a router?
-Dave
On 06/27/2017 03:05 PM, william degnan via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
I was thinking the load was light enough for what the OP was looking to do. b
On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 3:00 PM, Dave McGuire via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
On 06/27/2017 02:55 PM, william degnan via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
curious, but can't a VAX of even a modern box of some sort be rigged to act as a router for this kind of thing? Admittedly just asking not knowledgeable enough to answer this question myself..
That depends on the type of interfaces you want to route between. Some of the earliest routers were PDP-11s.
If you need to route something like a T1 or T3 line, that's pretty tough to do on anything but a purpose-built router due to support for those types of hardware interfaces. Further, for more modern circuits like OC192s, etc, there really aren't too many general-purpose computers available that can move data that fast in any predictable or consistent way, and nothing anywhere near as reliable or internally redundant as something like a big Cisco or Juniper machine. They exist with their six-figure price tags for a reason.
-Dave
-- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
-- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
Same here. :-) -Dave On 06/27/2017 03:16 PM, william degnan via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
lol. I am lost too. I am going to back to programming. Sometimes I come up for air and bite at the worm in these threads.
On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 3:07 PM, Dave McGuire via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
The first post in this thread could've been last year, as far as my brain is concerned today. ;) Was he planning to route between hardware interfaces that are reasonable to obtain on something other than a router?
-Dave
On 06/27/2017 03:05 PM, william degnan via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
I was thinking the load was light enough for what the OP was looking to do. b
On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 3:00 PM, Dave McGuire via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
On 06/27/2017 02:55 PM, william degnan via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
curious, but can't a VAX of even a modern box of some sort be rigged to act as a router for this kind of thing? Admittedly just asking not knowledgeable enough to answer this question myself..
That depends on the type of interfaces you want to route between. Some of the earliest routers were PDP-11s.
If you need to route something like a T1 or T3 line, that's pretty tough to do on anything but a purpose-built router due to support for those types of hardware interfaces. Further, for more modern circuits like OC192s, etc, there really aren't too many general-purpose computers available that can move data that fast in any predictable or consistent way, and nothing anywhere near as reliable or internally redundant as something like a big Cisco or Juniper machine. They exist with their six-figure price tags for a reason.
-Dave
-- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
-- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
-- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
Lately I have been doing a lot of security stuff. There are a lot of script kiddies out there playing where they should not be. On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 3:18 PM, Dave McGuire via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
Same here. :-)
-Dave
On 06/27/2017 03:16 PM, william degnan via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
lol. I am lost too. I am going to back to programming. Sometimes I come up for air and bite at the worm in these threads.
On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 3:07 PM, Dave McGuire via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
The first post in this thread could've been last year, as far as my brain is concerned today. ;) Was he planning to route between hardware interfaces that are reasonable to obtain on something other than a
router?
-Dave
On 06/27/2017 03:05 PM, william degnan via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
I was thinking the load was light enough for what the OP was looking to do. b
On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 3:00 PM, Dave McGuire via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
On 06/27/2017 02:55 PM, william degnan via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
curious, but can't a VAX of even a modern box of some sort be rigged
to
act
as a router for this kind of thing? Admittedly just asking not knowledgeable enough to answer this question myself..
That depends on the type of interfaces you want to route between. Some of the earliest routers were PDP-11s.
If you need to route something like a T1 or T3 line, that's pretty tough to do on anything but a purpose-built router due to support for those types of hardware interfaces. Further, for more modern circuits like OC192s, etc, there really aren't too many general-purpose computers available that can move data that fast in any predictable or consistent way, and nothing anywhere near as reliable or internally redundant as something like a big Cisco or Juniper machine. They exist with their six-figure price tags for a reason.
-Dave
-- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
-- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
-- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
It's true. It should be legal to break their little fingers. I've never understood the appeal of destroying other peoples' property for kicks. -Dave On 06/27/2017 03:30 PM, william degnan via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
Lately I have been doing a lot of security stuff. There are a lot of script kiddies out there playing where they should not be.
On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 3:18 PM, Dave McGuire via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
Same here. :-)
-Dave
On 06/27/2017 03:16 PM, william degnan via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
lol. I am lost too. I am going to back to programming. Sometimes I come up for air and bite at the worm in these threads.
On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 3:07 PM, Dave McGuire via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
The first post in this thread could've been last year, as far as my brain is concerned today. ;) Was he planning to route between hardware interfaces that are reasonable to obtain on something other than a
router?
-Dave
On 06/27/2017 03:05 PM, william degnan via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
I was thinking the load was light enough for what the OP was looking to do. b
On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 3:00 PM, Dave McGuire via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
On 06/27/2017 02:55 PM, william degnan via vcf-midatlantic wrote: > curious, but can't a VAX of even a modern box of some sort be rigged
to
act > as a router for this kind of thing? Admittedly just asking not > knowledgeable enough to answer this question myself..
That depends on the type of interfaces you want to route between. Some of the earliest routers were PDP-11s.
If you need to route something like a T1 or T3 line, that's pretty tough to do on anything but a purpose-built router due to support for those types of hardware interfaces. Further, for more modern circuits like OC192s, etc, there really aren't too many general-purpose computers available that can move data that fast in any predictable or consistent way, and nothing anywhere near as reliable or internally redundant as something like a big Cisco or Juniper machine. They exist with their six-figure price tags for a reason.
-Dave
-- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
-- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
-- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
-- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
what's happening, if you don't mind me saying, is that a lot of the tricks used by NSA and professionals, via their less responsible overseas subcontractors, are poking at servers to get CC info and steal stuff. It's a serious problem. Bill On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 3:32 PM, Dave McGuire via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
It's true. It should be legal to break their little fingers. I've never understood the appeal of destroying other peoples' property for kicks.
-Dave
On 06/27/2017 03:30 PM, william degnan via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
Lately I have been doing a lot of security stuff. There are a lot of script kiddies out there playing where they should not be.
On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 3:18 PM, Dave McGuire via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
Same here. :-)
-Dave
On 06/27/2017 03:16 PM, william degnan via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
lol. I am lost too. I am going to back to programming. Sometimes I come up for air and bite at the worm in these threads.
On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 3:07 PM, Dave McGuire via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
The first post in this thread could've been last year, as far as my brain is concerned today. ;) Was he planning to route between
hardware
interfaces that are reasonable to obtain on something other than a router?
-Dave
On 06/27/2017 03:05 PM, william degnan via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
I was thinking the load was light enough for what the OP was looking to do. b
On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 3:00 PM, Dave McGuire via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
> On 06/27/2017 02:55 PM, william degnan via vcf-midatlantic wrote: >> curious, but can't a VAX of even a modern box of some sort be rigged to > act >> as a router for this kind of thing? Admittedly just asking not >> knowledgeable enough to answer this question myself.. > > That depends on the type of interfaces you want to route between. > Some of the earliest routers were PDP-11s. > > If you need to route something like a T1 or T3 line, that's pretty > tough to do on anything but a purpose-built router due to support for > those types of hardware interfaces. Further, for more modern circuits > like OC192s, etc, there really aren't too many general-purpose computers > available that can move data that fast in any predictable or consistent > way, and nothing anywhere near as reliable or internally redundant as > something like a big Cisco or Juniper machine. They exist with their > six-figure price tags for a reason. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA >
-- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
-- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
-- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
On 06/27/2017 03:35 PM, william degnan via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
what's happening, if you don't mind me saying, is that a lot of the tricks used by NSA and professionals, via their less responsible overseas subcontractors, are poking at servers to get CC info and steal stuff. It's a serious problem.
It certainly is. But the NSA shouldn't be doing that crap either. Screwing with other peoples' stuff is wrong, whether it's gov't-sanctioned or not. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 3:38 PM, Dave McGuire via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
On 06/27/2017 03:35 PM, william degnan via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
what's happening, if you don't mind me saying, is that a lot of the tricks used by NSA and professionals, via their less responsible overseas subcontractors, are poking at servers to get CC info and steal stuff. It's a serious problem.
It certainly is. But the NSA shouldn't be doing that crap either. Screwing with other peoples' stuff is wrong, whether it's gov't-sanctioned or not.
-Dave
-- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
hacking is like sex, a true reflection of our society, they're always trying to get into your pants, regardless of their age, persuasion, gender, etc except catching a virus, doesn't require a needle in your ass -- _ ____ / \__/ Scotty, We Need More Power !! \_/ _\__ Aye, Cap'n, but we've only got 80 col's !!
On 06/27/2017 11:03 PM, - - wrote:
It's true. It should be legal to break their little fingers. I've never understood the appeal of destroying other peoples' property for kicks.
I fear you're under the mistaken idea that the 'script kiddies' are kiddies and not organized crime. Despite all the stories that get spread it's a huge money maker. Just look for weaponized AI (chat bots) and see how it is use to influence things. Sadly big business is getting into using the same methods to help its (and its customers) sales.
No, actually I'm talking specifically about the script kiddies. The actual large-scale criminals are a different problem, with a different solution. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
V.35 sync serial. You can *get* V.35 cards for PCs, but I'd imagine it's not supported in most OSes I'd want to do routing in (namely, OpenBSD). I specifically want a DECbrouter because it'll plug into the DEChub 90 I've got. I could certainly run SLIP or PPP over a serial interface to something else, but I'm interested in the DECbrouter because it's supposed to be a DEC/Cisco group effort. I've read a few places that it even runs IOS. The command reference makes this seem likely...it's very IOSish but with DEC specific stuff, like grabbing your firmware over MOP. At the end of the day, I'm just wanting to hack on old network hardware, there's no practicality in running V.35 sync serial between two networks in the lab when both are Ethernet (for the most part) anyway. The DEChub 90 currently has its own Ethernet interface on one of the routers, but with the DECbrouter in, it'll have a V.35 serial interface to the Cisco 2801 that's my main router/gateway and handles the aDSL line. I may hang a Cisco 2501 off of the second serial port on the DECbrouter. Looks like I found one in Australia for a reasonable price. I've ordered an adapter cable for V.35 from Vnetek, the company that bought the company that DEC sold their small network stuff to. $13 plus shipping for a brand new cable, not bad! Thanks, Jonathan On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 3:07 PM, Dave McGuire via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
The first post in this thread could've been last year, as far as my brain is concerned today. ;) Was he planning to route between hardware interfaces that are reasonable to obtain on something other than a router?
-Dave
On 06/27/2017 03:05 PM, william degnan via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
I was thinking the load was light enough for what the OP was looking to do. b
On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 3:00 PM, Dave McGuire via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
On 06/27/2017 02:55 PM, william degnan via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
curious, but can't a VAX of even a modern box of some sort be rigged to act as a router for this kind of thing? Admittedly just asking not knowledgeable enough to answer this question myself..
That depends on the type of interfaces you want to route between. Some of the earliest routers were PDP-11s.
If you need to route something like a T1 or T3 line, that's pretty tough to do on anything but a purpose-built router due to support for those types of hardware interfaces. Further, for more modern circuits like OC192s, etc, there really aren't too many general-purpose computers available that can move data that fast in any predictable or consistent way, and nothing anywhere near as reliable or internally redundant as something like a big Cisco or Juniper machine. They exist with their six-figure price tags for a reason.
-Dave
-- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
-- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
On 06/27/2017 10:56 PM, - - wrote:
I know my IGS (long gone) ran
IOS 8.x (upgraded from 6.x as I recall), and there was 9.x update that involved swapping PROMs. Never saw 10 on an IGS; that would have been a very, very tight fit since the IGS only had 1 or 2M RAM. Pretty sure 10.x ran on the AGS+ if you had enough memory.
10.x can indeed run on the AGS+. I've never seen it on any smaller *GS router.
CGS/MGS/AGS/ACS all had the same processor back plane so if it had enough memory it could run the IOS. The AT&T Model 200 BRouter (CGS) I have has a CSC3 (68030) with at least 9.x. The ACS (Dave?) has 9.x also.
Nice. I've never heard of the ACS, though. There was a "communications server", more or less a terminal server in that family, maybe that was it, but I don't recall the model name.
Played around with IOS 15.5 the other day...times have changed.
Yeah but it's still IOS, and still looks a whole lot like TOPS-20. :-)
That would be because Cisco was influenced by the DEC equipment CLI.
I spoke with the developers in 1989 about that.
Yup. Not to name-drop, but one of the founders lives a few blocks from here. He was quite excited to see the DECsystem-2020s here. I got a nice contract job from him (embedded systems design) too, which was very cool. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
participants (6)
-
- - -
Dan Roganti -
Dave McGuire -
Kenneth Seefried -
systems_glitch -
william degnan