cross platform coding for the Apple ][
Anyone have some success with getting the right tools to set a workflow for building cross platform coding on the Apple ][ ? I found some tools already which I hope someone can give us some advice to build a practical workflow. While helping Evan on his robot project, the traditional method of coding directly on the vintage platform becomes a burden when trying to collaborate over the phone, email or online. Because you can't see what's on their screen and you can't share the screen online as with today's desktops. No amount of chit-chatting to summarize the code without looking at it directly is going to help. For the moment, he wants to work with Applesoft Basic, and perhaps later once the bugs are worked out and the project is running, then dive into some 6502 assembly. In the past, because it's simply not practical to do that, I once had Evan and Jeff shine their phone's camera over the computer screen during a video conference to help debug the code, it worked :) But I suggested they get one of those goose-neck mounts to hold the phone or webcam so they can type faster Now I recommended that we change to the cross platform coding because it helps to share the code, share the work, especially when it comes time to debug any problems while we collaborate on this project from long distances. And these situations happen often on a new project, with new hardware, etc. So it becomes practical over the phone, email or online. I do this already with my C64 assembly coding project to collaborate with Jeff and others at long distances. But now I'm not sure if my google-foo has lots of static for this Apple ][ topic because I never had so much trouble finding enough info, versus the time when I had to setup one for my C64. It did take some time, but mostly to get familiar with the software tools out there which is specific to that machine. Then after it just took some time to iron out the steps between each tool. For the Apple ][ this is what I found so far 1. Editor = I think any editor would suffice here, maybe there's one specific for the Apple][ ? 2. Disk Imager = AppleCommander[jav], CiderPress[win], Ominvore[win], DiskBrowser[win] 3. Emulator = AppleWin[win], LinApple[nix]---> both are the same port 4. Floppy emulator = ADTPro[jav] via serial port Now these tools work as described, but there's still some glitches in the workflow problem#1, I can open any disk image with the tools mentioned. But then when I try to extract the Basic file on my desktop, the tools give you 2 choices, either the original Apple format, or text format. The original format is so you can later import the file to the disk image. But then it's not possible to edit the file cause I can't locate an editor which can view the file in the first place. And the viewer in the disk imagers don't let you edit file. problem#2, With AppleCommander, i can extract the Basic file. It's always exported as a text file. But then it insert extra CR's on every line. I can edit the code. then import the file back into the disk image. I can verify the code is good when I view this in the disk imager. And then I load this into the emulator. But when I list the file, there's always some glitches with extra lines of garbage text, either at the beginning or end, maybe in the middle. So we can do the basic things[summary], load disk images, make disk images, view files in the disk images, extract files from the disk images[not 100%], But then, we can't successfully import the files from the desktop with the Basic code, into the disk images for the emulator or live hardware, even though the viewer in the disk imager verifies its there and readable, the listing viewed in the emulator shows the glitches This is what we're facing and we like to find somebody that can give us advice on this ------------------- For the C64, I use Assembly coding. It became easier to build a practical workflow. I just use an editor, then a script for the Assembler to build the code, the symbol table, listing file, even a debug listing for the emulator, so I can set breakpoints on the labels from the code when debugging, and even the image file so I can add it to the disk image. Then there's a 2nd tool to build the disk images for the Commodore systems. And then a very powerful emulator called VICE, which handles every single computer made by Commodore -- to load the disk images for testing/debugging the code. And the same disk image is stored on a SD card to load into the C64 hardware for live testing. For Assembly coding, it's only 5 tools for cross platform coding on the C64 Plus there are some other tools which you use in parallel, for creating graphics, sprites and sound effects, and SID music 1. Editor 2. Assembler = DASM 3. Disk Imager 4. Emulator = VICE 5. uIEC = SD card floppy For those that use Basic coding, it's even simpler. Lots of people have been very progressive in building powerful coding tools for the Commodore scene. So there's one called CBM studio. This replaces #1, #2, and #3. 1. CBM studio 2. Emulator = VICE 3. uIEC = SD card floppy Some use the CBM studio for Assembly coding. But as you know with Assemblers, not all are compatible, because of their syntax style. So I try to avoid stuff like that. Because on one project, I tried to rewrite this network game, it was coded using DASM and I wasn't about to edit 100's of lines of code in a dozen files just for that, I had enough work ahead of me already, so I just kept using my editor and that assembler. ----------------------------- And there there's always the issue that many of the tools are not built for multiple desktop platforms. I don't fault the developers for this. Because there are some very good and powerful software tools for all aspects of the machine, for graphics hardware, sound hardware, etc, not just assembly coding. So I just keep using tools like VMware to run the different tools. You have to give lots of credit to the many people who devote so much time to building these tools. Because it really promotes a wide avenue for other people to use these to get very creative. I noticed there are always multiple types of people, this is just one example. People who know how to build the right tools for you, and people that get very creative by using the right tools. Example, If you want to build your own house, you like to find the right tools, rather than getting the "forge and anvil" to build your tools -- which can already be done better by those experts who devote their time -- so you can spend more time being creative on your house design. Dan
On 01/20/2017 12:51 PM, Dan Roganti via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
Anyone have some success with getting the right tools to set a workflow for building cross platform coding on the Apple ][ ?
Not sure this is the answer but I'm playing with CC65 under Linux for my Atari's. I'm impressed with it. Love the disassembler too. -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@linuxha.com http://www.linuxha.com/ Main site http://linuxha.blogspot.com/ My HA Blog Author of: Linux Smart Homes For Dummies
On Fri, Jan 20, 2017 at 1:06 PM, Neil Cherry <ncherry@linuxha.com> wrote:
On 01/20/2017 12:51 PM, Dan Roganti via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
Anyone have some success with getting the right tools to set a workflow for building cross platform coding on the Apple ][ ?
Not sure this is the answer but I'm playing with CC65 under Linux for my Atari's. I'm impressed with it. Love the disassembler too.
oh yea, that's another very good assembler, it had it rough start years ago, but I see the dust has settled, I was going to move to this for my future 6502 assembly coding projects on the C64 Lots of guys in that C64 scene have done so already, so I'm a little behind on the ball on this. But on Evan's project we're still working with Applesoft Basic for now, so that's why we're facing this problems with the workflow Dan
On Fri, Jan 20, 2017 at 1:10 PM, Dan Roganti <ragooman@gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, Jan 20, 2017 at 1:06 PM, Neil Cherry <ncherry@linuxha.com> wrote:
On 01/20/2017 12:51 PM, Dan Roganti via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
Anyone have some success with getting the right tools to set a workflow for building cross platform coding on the Apple ][ ?
Not sure this is the answer but I'm playing with CC65 under Linux for my Atari's. I'm impressed with it. Love the disassembler too.
oh yea, that's another very good assembler, it had it rough start years ago, but I see the dust has settled, I was going to move to this for my future 6502 assembly coding projects on the C64 Lots of guys in that C64 scene have done so already, so I'm a little behind on the ball on this.
But on Evan's project we're still working with Applesoft Basic for now, so that's why we're facing this problems with the workflow Dan
oh I see you meant the C compiler which I also like, I was thinking of their CA65 assembler Dan
On 01/20/2017 01:14 PM, Dan Roganti wrote:
On Fri, Jan 20, 2017 at 1:10 PM, Dan Roganti <ragooman@gmail.com <mailto:ragooman@gmail.com>> wrote:
On Fri, Jan 20, 2017 at 1:06 PM, Neil Cherry <ncherry@linuxha.com <mailto:ncherry@linuxha.com>> wrote:
On 01/20/2017 12:51 PM, Dan Roganti via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
Anyone have some success with getting the right tools to set a workflow for building cross platform coding on the Apple ][ ?
Not sure this is the answer but I'm playing with CC65 under Linux for my Atari's. I'm impressed with it. Love the disassembler too.
oh yea, that's another very good assembler, it had it rough start years ago, but I see the dust has settled, I was going to move to this for my future 6502 assembly coding projects on the C64 Lots of guys in that C64 scene have done so already, so I'm a little behind on the ball on this.
But on Evan's project we're still working with Applesoft Basic for now, so that's why we're facing this problems with the workflow Dan
oh I see you meant the C compiler which I also like, I was thinking of their CA65 assembler Dan
Well technically the whole thing. :-) I started working with CC65 when I started using the disassembler to disassemble the Omnimon XL ROM. There's a PDF posted to http://archive.org but the OCR text file is terrible. So I used the disassembler to produce the text and then clean it up to match the pdf (but with extra comments, there is no self documenting code in assembly). http://ushomeautomation.com/Projects/Atari/index.html I've only played with the basics on the C compiler. It seems to work well and is not hard to use. I also have Turbo BASIC for the Atari that works under Linux. Sorry I don't know of such a setup for the Apple. -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@linuxha.com http://www.linuxha.com/ Main site http://linuxha.blogspot.com/ My HA Blog Author of: Linux Smart Homes For Dummies
But on Evan's project we're still working with Applesoft Basic for now, so that's why we're facing this problems with the workflow Dan
There are two projects. One of the Lego robotics project. Meanwhile, Doug & the Docents (band name?) are working on a separate project to make demo software for most of the micros in our museum. That is why he asked about cross-platform coding etc. (We've already got a hearty discussion on the docents-only list re: content and presentation of the demo software, no need to get into that here.) ________________________________ Evan Koblentz, director Vintage Computer Federation a 501(c)3 educational non-profit evan@vcfed.org (646) 546-9999 www.vcfed.org facebook.com/vcfederation twitter.com/vcfederation
Now these tools work as described, but there's still some glitches in the workflow
Related question: it's easy to copy * from * CiderPress into a plain text file, but I can't paste from a plain text file * into * CiderPress. So I have a text file of BASIC code, then do I get it into a useful format for real hardware? I also can't paste into LinApple. Trying to avoid retyping the whole program.
Related question: it's easy to copy * from * CiderPress into a plain text file, but I can't paste from a plain text file * into * CiderPress. So I have a text file of BASIC code, then do I get it into a useful format for real hardware? I also can't paste into LinApple. Trying to avoid retyping the whole program.
Pretty sure Applesoft BASIC is tokenized. You'll need something to convert it, or just xfer it off with a serial transfer program. Thanks, Jonathan
ok, after digging around some more with these tools, and chatting on the phone with Evan, I found the solution. these are the steps, doesn't matter what OS, or using VMware, since some of the tools are linux, java, or only windows Evan let me know if i missed anything For any new programs or editing an existing program in a text file 1. write your new Applesoft Basic code or edit an existing program , and save this into a text file 2. take an existing Dos or ProDos disk image, which can be found online, and open it with CiderPress 3. a. Select the operation in the menu, Actions---> Convert to File Archive this will create an archive image in the shrinkit format b. you get a popup window called 'Convert to Archive" c. the button for 'Convert All Files' should be ON d. the box for 'Preserve Empty Folders' should be checked e. Click GO and you get the Save dialog window popup f. select your directory, such as your project, enter filename of this new archive file, click SAVE 4. Open this new archive file, you should see the same files from the disk image 5. a. Select the operation in the menu, Actions---> Import BAS from Text b. the 'Open Text File' dialog window will popup, select the text file containing your code c. you get another popup window, 'Import BAS from Text File' d. the filename box is pre-filled with the same filename of your code e. I suggest to changing this to CAPs for the Apple ][ system, then click SAVE f. the new code will now appear as an Applesoft Basic file in the new disk volume of the archive 6. a. Select the operation in the menu, Actions---> Convert to Disk Image b. you get a popup window called 'Convert to Disk Image" c. the button for 'Convert All Files' should be ON d. select the correct disk size, in our case, this was 140KB, 5.25" Floppy e. at the bottom, enter the new name of the ProDos volume, use CAPs, then click GO f. you get the Save dialog window popup, select your project directory, enter filename of the new disk image, click SAVE this is now a *.po disk image, which is specifically for ProDos disk images and it's still compatible with the emulator and ADTPro 7. Verify the disk image you can try this new disk image in the emulator to confirm the integrity of the disk image, before transferring with ADTPro 8. once it checks good, transfer the disk image back to the Apple ][ using ADTPro
I found the solution.
Indeed you did!
1. write your new Applesoft Basic code or edit an existing program , and save this into a text file
For everyone else: the original question I had for Dan was, "Suppose I have a text file of Applesoft code. How can I make that into a .dsk file rather than typing it in manually?" Now we know.
Evan / Dan: Thanks for the info! I run the ReActiveMicro Wiki ( http://reactivemicro.com/wiki) and have some CiderPress notes on it however it's mostly for use with the MicroDrive/Turbo IDE Controller. I have been meaning to create a page for CiderPress and add some steps like these. I'll make a note to add what Dan listed, or if someone wants to beat me to it feel free. The Wiki isn't just for Apple II things or software. Anything retro computer really. The idea was more a simple to use site that users like Dan could enter info so other users have a place to find it and also add useful things they deem useful. So everyone feel free to add things as you see fit. And thanks Dan for taking the time to note your steps. Hopefully that will save others time in the future. Henry S. Courbis Office Toll Free: (800) REACTIVE (732-2848) Office/Mobile Direct: (856) 779-1900 www.ReactiveMicro.com - Sales, Support, and News, Our Headquarters on the Internet ReactiveMicro.com/wiki - Support, Software, Manuals, and History. Create your own page today! Facebook.com/reactivemicrousa - Our Social Media Outlet and Support On Fri, Jan 20, 2017 at 10:39 PM, Evan Koblentz via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
I found the solution.
Indeed you did!
1. write your new Applesoft Basic code or edit an existing program , and
save this into a text file
For everyone else: the original question I had for Dan was, "Suppose I have a text file of Applesoft code. How can I make that into a .dsk file rather than typing it in manually?"
Now we know.
On Sat, Jan 21, 2017 at 12:17 AM, Support via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
Evan / Dan:
Thanks for the info! I run the ReActiveMicro Wiki ( http://reactivemicro.com/wiki) and have some CiderPress notes on it however it's mostly for use with the MicroDrive/Turbo IDE Controller. I have been meaning to create a page for CiderPress and add some steps like these. I'll make a note to add what Dan listed, or if someone wants to beat me to it feel free.
The Wiki isn't just for Apple II things or software. Anything retro computer really. The idea was more a simple to use site that users like Dan could enter info so other users have a place to find it and also add useful things they deem useful. So everyone feel free to add things as you see fit.
And thanks Dan for taking the time to note your steps. Hopefully that will save others time in the future.
Henry S. Courbis
Office Toll Free: (800) REACTIVE (732-2848) Office/Mobile Direct: (856) 779-1900 www.ReactiveMicro.com - Sales, Support, and News, Our Headquarters on the Internet ReactiveMicro.com/wiki - Support, Software, Manuals, and History. Create your own page today! Facebook.com/reactivemicrousa - Our Social Media Outlet and Support
oh ok, thanks, I'll go request an account on there soon, Dan
participants (5)
-
Dan Roganti -
Evan Koblentz -
Neil Cherry -
Support -
Systems Glitch