Bernoulli Drives needed in working condition
Dave responded to my points, with his points. I thought about it, but actually we see the same sorts of things in this discussion, and put some different values to them. That's good by me, discussions work that way. I see his points and I will consider them further. We aren't that far about, just differences in strategy and tactics. The action issue today, is what management will do about the donor's offer of data cartridges, and who might be found to execute if management want to accept conditions on that offer. So far, Dave and I are in neither category. So we are both "chatting" as I put it. He and I shared our views, I see no point in arguing between us, again it's not about either of us. I take his point, that discussion may lead to something and also has its own value. I'll leave it at that. Dave asks, what about the future, other such projects? "If you are going to shy away from a small thing, what happens when you have a big thing?" Yeah, that's a good question. I'd also call that "raising the stakes". It's a good way to consider policy. But that's not in play in this thread, I don't think. But it might be - I didn't know what Jeff would say next, when I wrote this. But I read ahead on the thread. ========================= Since Dave's post, before I posted what I wrote above, Jeff Brace blinds us with science, provides more facts. He explained what was potentially available. Like most "finds", it's an emerging situation. The drives are like the ones on my Web page - thus they are identified. There's 30, 40, 50 cartridges involved. And: two pairs of drives. Terms of providing the carts, are detailed. But my guess is, they are not final terms but done on-the-fly. They could change. That raises the stakes on the carts: at street value of the order of $20 a pop, that's several hundred dollars value minimum. And by the way: you'll also need cleaning carts, and often, to keep operating the drives. Maybe there's cleaning carts among the data carts Jeff saw. I know this much: I have a customer who says HE is still using these drives. So maybe these drives can be recovered and work again. So task one, is to get one drive inspected and working with one computer; maybe then both drives; maybe then on two computers. That's contingent on obtaining one or two controllers - without doubt. Getting something running is also necessary, to execute the deletion commitment. Task two - keep these running for a long activity, which I'll describe by guess. It's separate from running the system. Guessing about operation of the 10 MB Bernoulii drive, again what little I know. A "delete all files" operation must be tens of minutes effort, to load a cart, inspect, perform, inspect, remove. So that means some person-hours of work, to erase tens of carts, by simple math. Is this something the donor *really* wants to commit to, their personal or professional time? Where will they commit to do this? The systems may have to be moved, operated on the donor's site? Will that be practical? Can they be maintained? That's all I've got to say. I'm just guessing at the tasks involved. Maybe my discussion ("chatter") will be informative to whomever makes decisions about this acquisition and project. I can add, I have some IBM ISA controllers, which may be appropriate (I do not know), and which would have to be bought (not donated) and are not tested. Also cables, which may or may not be needed. I'll show them on my Web site when I get to it, in a day or two. It's pure circumstance that 1) I have these and 2) I happened to have a customer for them THIS WEEK. Otherwise they have been dormant for years. Regards, Herb Johnson -- Herbert R. Johnson, New Jersey in the USA http://www.retrotechnology.com OR .net preserve, recover, restore 1970's computing email: hjohnson AT retrotechnology DOT com or try later herbjohnson AT comcast DOT net
Hello everyone, I have passed this issue off to the Steering Committee and they are deciding what to do about this situation. We will update you as to what is decided and the progress made. Thanks to Herb, Dave and others for your information, comments and interest. It has been helpful to talk through the issues. ========================================= Jeff Brace Vice President & Board Member Vintage Computer Festival East Show-runner Vintage Computer Federation is a 501c3 charity http://www.vcfed.org/ jeffrey@vcfed.org On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 12:24 AM Herb Johnson via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
Dave responded to my points, with his points. I thought about it, but actually we see the same sorts of things in this discussion, and put some different values to them. That's good by me, discussions work that way. I see his points and I will consider them further. We aren't that far about, just differences in strategy and tactics.
The action issue today, is what management will do about the donor's offer of data cartridges, and who might be found to execute if management want to accept conditions on that offer. So far, Dave and I are in neither category. So we are both "chatting" as I put it. He and I shared our views, I see no point in arguing between us, again it's not about either of us.
I take his point, that discussion may lead to something and also has its own value. I'll leave it at that.
Dave asks, what about the future, other such projects? "If you are going to shy away from a small thing, what happens when you have a big thing?" Yeah, that's a good question. I'd also call that "raising the stakes". It's a good way to consider policy. But that's not in play in this thread, I don't think.
But it might be - I didn't know what Jeff would say next, when I wrote this. But I read ahead on the thread.
=========================
Since Dave's post, before I posted what I wrote above, Jeff Brace blinds us with science, provides more facts. He explained what was potentially available. Like most "finds", it's an emerging situation.
The drives are like the ones on my Web page - thus they are identified. There's 30, 40, 50 cartridges involved. And: two pairs of drives. Terms of providing the carts, are detailed. But my guess is, they are not final terms but done on-the-fly. They could change.
That raises the stakes on the carts: at street value of the order of $20 a pop, that's several hundred dollars value minimum. And by the way: you'll also need cleaning carts, and often, to keep operating the drives. Maybe there's cleaning carts among the data carts Jeff saw.
I know this much: I have a customer who says HE is still using these drives. So maybe these drives can be recovered and work again.
So task one, is to get one drive inspected and working with one computer; maybe then both drives; maybe then on two computers. That's contingent on obtaining one or two controllers - without doubt. Getting something running is also necessary, to execute the deletion commitment.
Task two - keep these running for a long activity, which I'll describe by guess. It's separate from running the system.
Guessing about operation of the 10 MB Bernoulii drive, again what little I know. A "delete all files" operation must be tens of minutes effort, to load a cart, inspect, perform, inspect, remove. So that means some person-hours of work, to erase tens of carts, by simple math. Is this something the donor *really* wants to commit to, their personal or professional time? Where will they commit to do this? The systems may have to be moved, operated on the donor's site? Will that be practical? Can they be maintained?
That's all I've got to say. I'm just guessing at the tasks involved. Maybe my discussion ("chatter") will be informative to whomever makes decisions about this acquisition and project.
I can add, I have some IBM ISA controllers, which may be appropriate (I do not know), and which would have to be bought (not donated) and are not tested. Also cables, which may or may not be needed. I'll show them on my Web site when I get to it, in a day or two. It's pure circumstance that 1) I have these and 2) I happened to have a customer for them THIS WEEK. Otherwise they have been dormant for years.
Regards, Herb Johnson
-- Herbert R. Johnson, New Jersey in the USA http://www.retrotechnology.com OR .net preserve, recover, restore 1970's computing email: hjohnson AT retrotechnology DOT com or try later herbjohnson AT comcast DOT net
I have both the 10 and 20MB version of the 8" drives working on a PC XT. ( http://www.brutman.com/Bernoulli_Box/Bernoulli_Box_A220H.html) I'd really hate to see the cartridges destroyed - they are not making new ones. Also, Bulk erasing will ruin the servo information recorded on the media. Mike
On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 11:44 PM Michael Brutman <michael@vcfed.org> wrote:
I have both the 10 and 20MB version of the 8" drives working on a PC XT. ( http://www.brutman.com/Bernoulli_Box/Bernoulli_Box_A220H.html)
I'd really hate to see the cartridges destroyed - they are not making new ones. Also, Bulk erasing will ruin the servo information recorded on the media.
Not to worry Mike! Dean is on the case to contact the donor to see about how to remove the data and keep the cartridges. Funny thing is that Andy found your webpage when he was doing research two days ago. We are doing our best to get a working system locally to read from these cartridges, not just for the donated ones, but others in the future.
Mike
On 5/20/21 8:11 AM, Jeffrey Brace via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
I have both the 10 and 20MB version of the 8" drives working on a PC XT. ( http://www.brutman.com/Bernoulli_Box/Bernoulli_Box_A220H.html)
I'd really hate to see the cartridges destroyed - they are not making new ones. Also, Bulk erasing will ruin the servo information recorded on the media.
Not to worry Mike! Dean is on the case to contact the donor to see about how to remove the data and keep the cartridges. Funny thing is that Andy found your webpage when he was doing research two days ago. We are doing our best to get a working system locally to read from these cartridges, not just for the donated ones, but others in the future.
I'm deeply relieved to hear this. Excellent work. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
participants (4)
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Dave McGuire -
Herb Johnson -
Jeffrey Brace -
Michael Brutman