Re: [vcf-midatlantic] LSI-11 simulator
No RT-11 disk image I’ve used will boot, I was hoping someone could point me to a listing of what the on-disk boot block code on an RT-11 floppy might look like.
Rich, I don't understand your problem. If you have access to RT-11 disk images on the Web, my guess is some of them are "bootable". By "bootable" that means by your account, they have PDP11 boot code on their first sector. If they have boot code on their first sector - then extract the first sector and *hand disassemble the binary*. Then you know what that code quote "looks like". 256 words (512 bytes) is just a handful of disassembly work - hardly worth bothering to run an emulator to run some debugger to produce some PDP-11 code. and you seem so deep into this custom emulator and the LSI-11 architecture, that you seem to know what you'd need to make sense of the boot code. I'm familiar with PDP-11's a little, it's not horrendous binary code. YOu also say, this emulator apparently needs a custom RT-11, presumably with custom boot code. But the creator doesn't recall the details. Well, 24 years is a long time to remember such things. That being the case, you will have to figure out the boot process anyway. You already have to dig into the emulator. And you seem to know the hardware. Thus doing the hand disassembly will be, er, "informative". What am I missing here? Do you need some known bootable RT-11 diskettes, so you can put one in some drive and read off the boot sector? Or someone to send you that binary or disk image? Likewise:
It’s like looking for a disassembly of the MS-DOS boot sector.
(snort) MS-DOS DEBUG will do that, with a IBM PC tech manual in hand. I don't mean to belabor the point, but maybe this is as I suspect: a desire to avoid hand-disassembly. If that's a personal issue, my apologies, but I think it's a very useful skill. And if it's not a desirable task, well, there's usually debuggers which do that, or one can cobble up a disassembler in one's favorite language (or borrow one and rework it). I've done all those things, and still do, but that's just me. Puzzled, Herb -- Herbert R. Johnson, New Jersey in the USA http://www.retrotechnology.com OR .net preserve, recover, restore 1970's computing email: hjohnson AT retrotechnology DOT com or try later herbjohnson AT retrotechnology DOT info
PDP11GUI allows you to create bootable media by simulating tape storage via PC rs232 port. What I did was use simH to create the boot disk I wanted, tested to make sure it worked and then used PDP11GUI to dump the image onto an awaiting RL02 disk. You can do the same with RK05 and I presume RX01/2 as well. Bill On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 12:25 PM Herb Johnson via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
No RT-11 disk image I’ve used will boot, I was hoping someone could point me to a listing of what the on-disk boot block code on an RT-11 floppy might look like.
Rich, I don't understand your problem. If you have access to RT-11 disk images on the Web, my guess is some of them are "bootable". By "bootable" that means by your account, they have PDP11 boot code on their first sector. If they have boot code on their first sector - then extract the first sector and *hand disassemble the binary*. Then you know what that code quote "looks like".
256 words (512 bytes) is just a handful of disassembly work - hardly worth bothering to run an emulator to run some debugger to produce some PDP-11 code. and you seem so deep into this custom emulator and the LSI-11 architecture, that you seem to know what you'd need to make sense of the boot code. I'm familiar with PDP-11's a little, it's not horrendous binary code.
YOu also say, this emulator apparently needs a custom RT-11, presumably with custom boot code. But the creator doesn't recall the details. Well, 24 years is a long time to remember such things. That being the case, you will have to figure out the boot process anyway. You already have to dig into the emulator. And you seem to know the hardware. Thus doing the hand disassembly will be, er, "informative".
What am I missing here? Do you need some known bootable RT-11 diskettes, so you can put one in some drive and read off the boot sector? Or someone to send you that binary or disk image?
Likewise:
It’s like looking for a disassembly of the MS-DOS boot sector.
(snort) MS-DOS DEBUG will do that, with a IBM PC tech manual in hand.
I don't mean to belabor the point, but maybe this is as I suspect: a desire to avoid hand-disassembly. If that's a personal issue, my apologies, but I think it's a very useful skill. And if it's not a desirable task, well, there's usually debuggers which do that, or one can cobble up a disassembler in one's favorite language (or borrow one and rework it). I've done all those things, and still do, but that's just me.
Puzzled, Herb
-- Herbert R. Johnson, New Jersey in the USA http://www.retrotechnology.com OR .net preserve, recover, restore 1970's computing email: hjohnson AT retrotechnology DOT com or try later herbjohnson AT retrotechnology DOT info
Sorry I forgot my web page notes: https://www.vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=668 Let me know how it goes. b On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 1:13 PM Bill Degnan <billdegnan@gmail.com> wrote:
PDP11GUI allows you to create bootable media by simulating tape storage via PC rs232 port. What I did was use simH to create the boot disk I wanted, tested to make sure it worked and then used PDP11GUI to dump the image onto an awaiting RL02 disk. You can do the same with RK05 and I presume RX01/2 as well. Bill
On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 12:25 PM Herb Johnson via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
No RT-11 disk image I’ve used will boot, I was hoping someone could point me to a listing of what the on-disk boot block code on an RT-11 floppy might look like.
Rich, I don't understand your problem. If you have access to RT-11 disk images on the Web, my guess is some of them are "bootable". By "bootable" that means by your account, they have PDP11 boot code on their first sector. If they have boot code on their first sector - then extract the first sector and *hand disassemble the binary*. Then you know what that code quote "looks like".
256 words (512 bytes) is just a handful of disassembly work - hardly worth bothering to run an emulator to run some debugger to produce some PDP-11 code. and you seem so deep into this custom emulator and the LSI-11 architecture, that you seem to know what you'd need to make sense of the boot code. I'm familiar with PDP-11's a little, it's not horrendous binary code.
YOu also say, this emulator apparently needs a custom RT-11, presumably with custom boot code. But the creator doesn't recall the details. Well, 24 years is a long time to remember such things. That being the case, you will have to figure out the boot process anyway. You already have to dig into the emulator. And you seem to know the hardware. Thus doing the hand disassembly will be, er, "informative".
What am I missing here? Do you need some known bootable RT-11 diskettes, so you can put one in some drive and read off the boot sector? Or someone to send you that binary or disk image?
Likewise:
It’s like looking for a disassembly of the MS-DOS boot sector.
(snort) MS-DOS DEBUG will do that, with a IBM PC tech manual in hand.
I don't mean to belabor the point, but maybe this is as I suspect: a desire to avoid hand-disassembly. If that's a personal issue, my apologies, but I think it's a very useful skill. And if it's not a desirable task, well, there's usually debuggers which do that, or one can cobble up a disassembler in one's favorite language (or borrow one and rework it). I've done all those things, and still do, but that's just me.
Puzzled, Herb
-- Herbert R. Johnson, New Jersey in the USA http://www.retrotechnology.com OR .net preserve, recover, restore 1970's computing email: hjohnson AT retrotechnology DOT com or try later herbjohnson AT retrotechnology DOT info
I've used PDP11GUI for various things, as well as the TU58, so I will give that a try. Thanks. Rich -- Rich Cini http://www.classiccmp.org/cini http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32 On 9/10/20, 1:16 PM, "vcf-midatlantic on behalf of Bill Degnan via vcf-midatlantic" <vcf-midatlantic-bounces@lists.vcfed.org on behalf of vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote: Sorry I forgot my web page notes: https://www.vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=668 Let me know how it goes. b On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 1:13 PM Bill Degnan <billdegnan@gmail.com> wrote: > PDP11GUI allows you to create bootable media by simulating tape storage > via PC rs232 port. What I did was use simH to create the boot disk I > wanted, tested to make sure it worked and then used PDP11GUI to dump the > image onto an awaiting RL02 disk. You can do the same with RK05 and I > presume RX01/2 as well. > Bill > > On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 12:25 PM Herb Johnson via vcf-midatlantic < > vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote: > >> > No RT-11 disk image I’ve used will boot, >> > I was hoping someone could point me to a listing of what the on-disk >> boot block code on an RT-11 floppy might look like. >> >> Rich, I don't understand your problem. If you have access to RT-11 disk >> images on the Web, my guess is some of them are "bootable". By >> "bootable" that means by your account, they have PDP11 boot code on >> their first sector. If they have boot code on their first sector - then >> extract the first sector and *hand disassemble the binary*. Then you >> know what that code quote "looks like". >> >> 256 words (512 bytes) is just a handful of disassembly work - hardly >> worth bothering to run an emulator to run some debugger to produce some >> PDP-11 code. and you seem so deep into this custom emulator and the >> LSI-11 architecture, that you seem to know what you'd need to make sense >> of the boot code. I'm familiar with PDP-11's a little, it's not >> horrendous binary code. >> >> YOu also say, this emulator apparently needs a custom RT-11, presumably >> with custom boot code. But the creator doesn't recall the details. Well, >> 24 years is a long time to remember such things. That being the case, >> you will have to figure out the boot process anyway. You already have to >> dig into the emulator. And you seem to know the hardware. Thus doing the >> hand disassembly will be, er, "informative". >> >> What am I missing here? Do you need some known bootable RT-11 diskettes, >> so you can put one in some drive and read off the boot sector? Or >> someone to send you that binary or disk image? >> >> Likewise: >> >> > It’s like looking for a disassembly of the MS-DOS boot sector. >> >> (snort) MS-DOS DEBUG will do that, with a IBM PC tech manual in hand. >> >> I don't mean to belabor the point, but maybe this is as I suspect: a >> desire to avoid hand-disassembly. If that's a personal issue, my >> apologies, but I think it's a very useful skill. And if it's not a >> desirable task, well, there's usually debuggers which do that, or one >> can cobble up a disassembler in one's favorite language (or borrow one >> and rework it). I've done all those things, and still do, but that's >> just me. >> >> Puzzled, Herb >> >> -- >> Herbert R. Johnson, New Jersey in the USA >> http://www.retrotechnology.com OR .net >> preserve, recover, restore 1970's computing >> email: hjohnson AT retrotechnology DOT com >> or try later herbjohnson AT retrotechnology DOT info >> >
Thanks Herb. I was looking to avoid hand-disassembling the code if the work had already been done somewhere. I know a lot of the DEC manuals had bootstrap code in them, but it's mostly the device bootstrap, not what would be in the boot blocks. If it's in a manual somewhere, then I just need the manual number or title. But, I certainly can grab the first 256 words and hand-disassemble it. I could also probably use PDP11GUI to do it. Rich -- Rich Cini http://www.classiccmp.org/cini http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32 On 9/10/20, 12:26 PM, "vcf-midatlantic on behalf of Herb Johnson via vcf-midatlantic" <vcf-midatlantic-bounces@lists.vcfed.org on behalf of vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote: > No RT-11 disk image I’ve used will boot, > I was hoping someone could point me to a listing of what the on-disk boot block code on an RT-11 floppy might look like. Rich, I don't understand your problem. If you have access to RT-11 disk images on the Web, my guess is some of them are "bootable". By "bootable" that means by your account, they have PDP11 boot code on their first sector. If they have boot code on their first sector - then extract the first sector and *hand disassemble the binary*. Then you know what that code quote "looks like". 256 words (512 bytes) is just a handful of disassembly work - hardly worth bothering to run an emulator to run some debugger to produce some PDP-11 code. and you seem so deep into this custom emulator and the LSI-11 architecture, that you seem to know what you'd need to make sense of the boot code. I'm familiar with PDP-11's a little, it's not horrendous binary code. YOu also say, this emulator apparently needs a custom RT-11, presumably with custom boot code. But the creator doesn't recall the details. Well, 24 years is a long time to remember such things. That being the case, you will have to figure out the boot process anyway. You already have to dig into the emulator. And you seem to know the hardware. Thus doing the hand disassembly will be, er, "informative". What am I missing here? Do you need some known bootable RT-11 diskettes, so you can put one in some drive and read off the boot sector? Or someone to send you that binary or disk image? Likewise: > It’s like looking for a disassembly of the MS-DOS boot sector. (snort) MS-DOS DEBUG will do that, with a IBM PC tech manual in hand. I don't mean to belabor the point, but maybe this is as I suspect: a desire to avoid hand-disassembly. If that's a personal issue, my apologies, but I think it's a very useful skill. And if it's not a desirable task, well, there's usually debuggers which do that, or one can cobble up a disassembler in one's favorite language (or borrow one and rework it). I've done all those things, and still do, but that's just me. Puzzled, Herb -- Herbert R. Johnson, New Jersey in the USA http://www.retrotechnology.com OR .net preserve, recover, restore 1970's computing email: hjohnson AT retrotechnology DOT com or try later herbjohnson AT retrotechnology DOT info
participants (3)
-
Bill Degnan -
Herb Johnson -
Richard Cini