On 06/17/2018 01:33 PM, Bill Degnan via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
I have two next laser printers..I thought they were just ho laser jet II's with an adapter
Dave McGuire wrote; No, they are very different. HP never got their hands on these; NeXT bought SX engines from Canon.
Well.. The Laserwriter II was also based on a Canon SX engine, which was the engine for the LaserJet II. My wife still uses a LJ II or III, and I've sold LW II printers and parts for well over a decade. Wikipedia describes the lineage: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaserWriter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HP_LaserJet (probably an entry for neXt...) Point being, calling all these "a LJ II" is a plausible term of convenience, as LJ II's and III's were the most common of the printers discussed. Herb -- Herbert R. Johnson, New Jersey in the USA http://www.retrotechnology.com OR .net
On 06/17/2018 04:18 PM, Herb Johnson via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
I have two next laser printers..I thought they were just ho laser jet II's with an adapter
Dave McGuire wrote; No, they are very different. HP never got their hands on these; NeXT bought SX engines from Canon.
Well.. The Laserwriter II was also based on a Canon SX engine, which was the engine for the LaserJet II. My wife still uses a LJ II or III, and
Yes, yes, and cool.
I've sold LW II printers and parts for well over a decade.
Excellent, I was unaware of that; now I know where to get parts! :-) I was factory trained by Canon in the servicing of SX engines shortly after they were introduced.
Point being, calling all these "a LJ II" is a plausible term of convenience, as LJ II's and III's were the most common of the printers discussed.
(Sigh. Why today, of all days?) To call it an "LJ II" is incorrect, because it is not, in fact, an LJ II. Even "most common" is subjective...in hindsight by sales volume, sure, but at the time, in my world of publishing and typesetting when I was still in NJ, the QMS PS-810 (also based on a Canon SX engine) was to me (again, at the time) far more common than the HP LJ II...everyone I worked with had the former, and not a single one had the latter. So to say the NeXT printer was a QMS PS-810 would also be incorrect, in the same way, and for the same simple reason. It is the nature of language to evolve, but not so the terminology of identification of past commercial products. Now, there's a message in this mailing list's archives that may give some future researcher the idea that the NeXT laser printer is an LJ II, which it is not. That is why I posted the correction, in hopes that anyone performing research on this topic in the future will be more thorough than to just read one message in an archived thread. A plausible term of convenience might be "something superficially similar to an LJ II"... but simply "LJ II" is not. The NeXT printer doesn't even look like an LJ II, so even that is a stretch. We are technical people living in a world of terminological imprecision, linguistic laziness, and a disgusting excess of "convenience". I am a member of the last generation of people to have used NeXT computers when they were current products. Like it or not, we are the custodians of this knowledge. Bill did not know offhand, and that's fine. We all learn from each other here. In this case, someone (me) did know, and came forth with specific information. Technical accuracy in the forum archives of subject matter experts should never fall victim to "convenience". -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
A plausible term of convenience might be "something superficially similar to an LJ II"... but simply "LJ II" is not. The NeXT printer doesn't even look like an LJ II, so even that is a stretch. We are technical people living in a world of terminological imprecision, linguistic laziness, and a disgusting excess of "convenience". I am a member of the last generation of people to have used NeXT computers when they were current products. Like it or not, we are the custodians of this knowledge.
Bill did not know offhand, and that's fine. We all learn from each other here. In this case, someone (me) did know, and came forth with specific information.
Technical accuracy in the forum archives of subject matter experts should never fall victim to "convenience".
Anyhoo ... I have two such printers, I shall take some time to hook them up to a willing NeXT to see how well they work. Bill
It might also be possible to make a 'next printer emulator' which pretends to be a Canon SX engine and rasterizes the output into an image file on an SD card... or just acts as a 'bouncer' and automatically forwards the rasterized page image as a bitmap to another printer via lpr over the network. On 6/17/2018 8:12 PM, Bill Degnan via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
A plausible term of convenience might be "something superficially similar to an LJ II"... but simply "LJ II" is not. The NeXT printer doesn't even look like an LJ II, so even that is a stretch. We are technical people living in a world of terminological imprecision, linguistic laziness, and a disgusting excess of "convenience". I am a member of the last generation of people to have used NeXT computers when they were current products. Like it or not, we are the custodians of this knowledge.
Bill did not know offhand, and that's fine. We all learn from each other here. In this case, someone (me) did know, and came forth with specific information.
Technical accuracy in the forum archives of subject matter experts should never fall victim to "convenience".
Anyhoo ... I have two such printers, I shall take some time to hook them up to a willing NeXT to see how well they work. Bill
-- Jonathan Gevaryahu jgevaryahu@gmail.com jgevaryahu@hotmail.com
That would be great, but it would take some pretty fast logic. Why not just set up a network printer? It's BSD UNIX, after all, at least on the outside. -Dave On 06/17/2018 09:47 PM, Jonathan Gevaryahu via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
It might also be possible to make a 'next printer emulator' which pretends to be a Canon SX engine and rasterizes the output into an image file on an SD card... or just acts as a 'bouncer' and automatically forwards the rasterized page image as a bitmap to another printer via lpr over the network.
On 6/17/2018 8:12 PM, Bill Degnan via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
A plausible term of convenience might be "something superficially similar to an LJ II"... but simply "LJ II" is not. The NeXT printer doesn't even look like an LJ II, so even that is a stretch. We are technical people living in a world of terminological imprecision, linguistic laziness, and a disgusting excess of "convenience". I am a member of the last generation of people to have used NeXT computers when they were current products. Like it or not, we are the custodians of this knowledge.
Bill did not know offhand, and that's fine. We all learn from each other here. In this case, someone (me) did know, and came forth with specific information.
Technical accuracy in the forum archives of subject matter experts should never fall victim to "convenience".
Anyhoo ... I have two such printers, I shall take some time to hook them up to a willing NeXT to see how well they work. Bill
-- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
I'm guessing it would take an FPGA plus probably an ARM cpu of some sort. Might be doable as a Raspberry Pi daughterboard, or as a Beaglebone black cape. On 6/17/2018 9:53 PM, Dave McGuire via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
That would be great, but it would take some pretty fast logic. Why not just set up a network printer? It's BSD UNIX, after all, at least on the outside.
-Dave
On 06/17/2018 09:47 PM, Jonathan Gevaryahu via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
It might also be possible to make a 'next printer emulator' which pretends to be a Canon SX engine and rasterizes the output into an image file on an SD card... or just acts as a 'bouncer' and automatically forwards the rasterized page image as a bitmap to another printer via lpr over the network.
On 6/17/2018 8:12 PM, Bill Degnan via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
A plausible term of convenience might be "something superficially similar to an LJ II"... but simply "LJ II" is not. The NeXT printer doesn't even look like an LJ II, so even that is a stretch. We are technical people living in a world of terminological imprecision, linguistic laziness, and a disgusting excess of "convenience". I am a member of the last generation of people to have used NeXT computers when they were current products. Like it or not, we are the custodians of this knowledge.
Bill did not know offhand, and that's fine. We all learn from each other here. In this case, someone (me) did know, and came forth with specific information.
Technical accuracy in the forum archives of subject matter experts should never fall victim to "convenience".
Anyhoo ... I have two such printers, I shall take some time to hook them up to a willing NeXT to see how well they work. Bill
-- Jonathan Gevaryahu jgevaryahu@gmail.com jgevaryahu@hotmail.com
OK, I'm struggling with how to respond to Dave McGuire's response, in this otherwise uneventful discussion thread, on the NeXT laser printer and how or if it is related in some ways or not, to other laser printers of the era. I've decided, to not say too much, and to not say it at length. First, as a personal matter, I'm sorry if Dave McGuire took my post in some kind of personal way, I apologize to him. I had no idea, that sort of personal response from him was at stake, regarding some set of laser printers, or my choice of words. The technical issues and histories about these printers, the subject of the discussion thread, are sufficiently noted for more information to be found by anyone interested, for their purposes. And, in looking at posts after Dave's, I *strongly* suggest reading more about what "a Canon SX print engine" means. It does not mean a ready-to-go printer, it means something as Dave discusses. The printers in discussion are not identical, and again homework can be done to determine their differences and where they share components in common - that being my point. Otherwise, I don't know about NeXT machines and printers, so I can't add further to that discussion. But Dave brings up a number of other things, which I don't believe are limited to this particular thread and subject. I see he feels strongly about them. But for many reasons including good-will discussion, I will not post responses to those things. Herb Johnson -- Herbert R. Johnson, New Jersey in the USA http://www.retrotechnology.com OR .net
Otherwise, I don't know about NeXT machines and printers, so I can't add further to that discussion.
I do have one more question. I was only parroting the lore I heard out there and mistakenly repeated it - "The Next Printer is just a Laser Jet II with a Next Badge"....where did that come from then? I am well aware that there are many incorrect anecdotes in our hobby. Is this just one of them? Before you know it they'll be saying the Apple II was not the first computer ever.
I am well aware that there are many incorrect anecdotes in our hobby. Is this just one of them? Before you know it they'll be saying the Apple II was not the first computer ever.
Obviously that's an incorrect anecdote. Everyone knows the Apple I was the first computer ever, invented by Steve Jobs with help from Steve Wozniak. Duh. Tony
On 06/18/2018 02:56 PM, Bill Degnan via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
I do have one more question. I was only parroting the lore I heard out there and mistakenly repeated it - "The Next Printer is just a Laser Jet II with a Next Badge"....where did that come from then? I am well aware that there are many incorrect anecdotes in our hobby. Is this just one of them? Before you know it they'll be saying the Apple II was not the first computer ever.
It came from an idiot who doesn't know what a laser printer "engine" is, made an assumption likely based on superficial mechanical similarity, made another assumption about who actually made the HP LaserJet printer mechanism, and made proclamations based on those assumptions. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 3:19 PM Dave McGuire via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
On 06/18/2018 02:56 PM, Bill Degnan via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
I do have one more question. I was only parroting the lore I heard out there and mistakenly repeated it - "The Next Printer is just a Laser Jet II with a Next Badge"....where did that come from then? I am well aware that there are many incorrect anecdotes in our hobby. Is this just one of them? Before you know it they'll be saying the Apple II was not the first computer ever.
It came from an idiot who doesn't know what a laser printer "engine" is, made an assumption likely based on superficial mechanical similarity, made another assumption about who actually made the HP LaserJet printer mechanism, and made proclamations based on those assumptions.
ah, that guy. b
So was the NeXT laser printer with it's lack of onboard processor priced higher than the LaserJet II? Also, the NeXT systems might as well have been Macintoshes. At lest my slab. - Ethan
On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 3:41 PM Ethan O'Toole via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
So was the NeXT laser printer with it's lack of onboard processor priced higher than the LaserJet II?
Also, the NeXT systems might as well have been Macintoshes. At lest my slab.
- Ethan
When Steve Wozniack invented the NeXT he was overhead to say "I am tired of always having to come up with new crap, let's just re-badge the Apple II and LaserJet II and go skiing" b
On 06/18/2018 03:54 PM, Ethan O'Toole via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
When Steve Wozniack invented the NeXT he was overhead to say "I am tired of always having to come up with new crap, let's just re-badge the Apple II and LaserJet II and go skiing"
Maybe you could drive the next laser printer with the Apple II floppy controller.
soda -> keyboard -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
On 06/18/2018 03:40 PM, Ethan O'Toole via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
So was the NeXT laser printer with it's lack of onboard processor priced higher than the LaserJet II?
Yes. It might also have to do with the increased resolution, 400DPI vs 300.
Also, the NeXT systems might as well have been Macintoshes. At lest my slab.
Yes, but they were better. B-) (the DSP56001 comes to mind, as does the real OS..) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
On 06/18/2018 02:47 PM, Herb Johnson via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
I've decided, to not say too much, and to not say it at length. First, as a personal matter, I'm sorry if Dave McGuire took my post in some kind of personal way, I apologize to him. I had no idea, that sort of personal response from him was at stake, regarding some set of laser printers, or my choice of words.
No worries Herb.
The technical issues and histories about these printers, the subject of the discussion thread, are sufficiently noted for more information to be found by anyone interested, for their purposes. And, in looking at posts after Dave's, I *strongly* suggest reading more about what "a Canon SX print engine" means. It does not mean a ready-to-go printer, it means something as Dave discusses. The printers in discussion are not identical, and again homework can be done to determine their differences and where they share components in common - that being my point.
Otherwise, I don't know about NeXT machines and printers, so I can't add further to that discussion.
The NeXT laser printer interface is a raw clocked synchronous serial interface that, as I understand it, carries several serialized engine control and timing signals as well as a video signal ("video" doesn't always mean "monitor", for others reading this thread) for the actual dots on the page. This interface is implemented in the NeXT "Peripheral Controller" ASIC and is carried on a DE9 connector. I don't know if anyone has reverse-engineered the interface. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
No worries Herb. - Dave
Good, thanks. Apparently, there's still confusion as to what a "Canon SX print engine" "is" and how it relates to various printers of the era, including the Next laser printer. And you know, as people were posting about this in this discussion list, I was letting my lunch get cold, doing some Web searching, reading and transcribing bits of what I could find, trying to decide "should I post what I think a "print engine" is, invite Dave to add to that description?" Try to answer this question, with the limits of what I know or can find *right now*. In other words, treat this as a real question. And then the discussion dissolved into Apple-II posts. I think Dave's reaction is something like mine:
soda -> keyboard
..and I kind-of get what Dave McGuire was getting at, in his larger response. There is some more-serious purpose in these discussions, and if those asking don't consider the effort needed to respond, or the value of these discussions beyond amusing each other for the day or moment; then that disrespects those of us with more purpose that that. So: here's a reference I found on the Next laser printer product: Oct 17 1988 article in InfoWorld (page 93) which associates the Canon SX print engine with that product. If you really want to know more, read the "fine" Next service manuals; see if Next printer parts "cross" over to parts on the other mentioned printers; and check the history of Canon, HP, and Apple laser printers to get a clearer picture. I'm gonna eat my now-cold lunch and go about other matters. Dave, sorry to hear about that keyboard, I get the concept. Herb Johnson Herb Johnson -- Herbert R. Johnson, New Jersey in the USA http://www.retrotechnology.com OR .net
Here is the service manual for the printer. Unfortunately the schematics are missing from this set. I wouldn’t mind seeing what the Interface Circuit consists of. http://www.nextcomputers.org/NeXTfiles/Docs/Hardware/NeXT%20400%20DPI%20Lase... <http://www.nextcomputers.org/NeXTfiles/Docs/Hardware/NeXT%20400%20DPI%20Laser%20Printer%20Complete_OCR.pdf> David
On Jun 18, 2018, at 4:35 PM, Herb Johnson via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
No worries Herb. - Dave
Good, thanks.
Apparently, there's still confusion as to what a "Canon SX print engine" "is" and how it relates to various printers of the era, including the Next laser printer.
And you know, as people were posting about this in this discussion list, I was letting my lunch get cold, doing some Web searching, reading and transcribing bits of what I could find, trying to decide "should I post what I think a "print engine" is, invite Dave to add to that description?" Try to answer this question, with the limits of what I know or can find *right now*.
In other words, treat this as a real question.
And then the discussion dissolved into Apple-II posts. I think Dave's reaction is something like mine:
soda -> keyboard
..and I kind-of get what Dave McGuire was getting at, in his larger response. There is some more-serious purpose in these discussions, and if those asking don't consider the effort needed to respond, or the value of these discussions beyond amusing each other for the day or moment; then that disrespects those of us with more purpose that that.
So: here's a reference I found on the Next laser printer product:
Oct 17 1988 article in InfoWorld (page 93)
which associates the Canon SX print engine with that product. If you really want to know more, read the "fine" Next service manuals; see if Next printer parts "cross" over to parts on the other mentioned printers; and check the history of Canon, HP, and Apple laser printers to get a clearer picture.
I'm gonna eat my now-cold lunch and go about other matters. Dave, sorry to hear about that keyboard, I get the concept.
Herb Johnson
Herb Johnson
-- Herbert R. Johnson, New Jersey in the USA http://www.retrotechnology.com OR .net
On 6/18/2018 4:39 PM, David Ryskalczyk wrote:
Here is the service manual for the printer. Unfortunately the schematics are missing from this set. I wouldn’t mind seeing what the Interface Circuit consists of.
David
I dont' know if David Ryskalczy was asking me to respond, to his finding the service manual, but I got an email specifically to me and not just to the list, which isn't usual. I did say "read the manual". If he has a serious interest in the printer, my apologies if my remarks about lack-of-interest were misdirected his way. I looked at the service manual, which apparently is for the mechanics and electronics that manages paper and the laser-written image on the drum and so forth. The phrase "print engine" doesn't appear in the document, nor the name "Canon" (except once, regarding paper). But I'd suggest this manual is the OEM's "print engine" service manual; intended for field-service to diagnose and physically repair this printer, by adjustments and module-replacements. And not, for electronic-component level repairs and therefore no need for schematics. If the OEM (presumably Canon) produced this manual, it's not unusual in the era that they don't put their name on it, or on the parts. But what I see in that manual, and in some associated documents on site, are consistent to me with the notion that the Next "print engine" is like the HP LaserJet II/III "print engine" which is better-known to be a Canon SX OEM product or design. That's all I know. If someone affirms the Canon/NeXT association further than my evidence, I'd not mind knowing. As to the question of some thing, that could operate some laser printer with the signals from the NeXT computer "laser printer" port? I don't know about that. I'm damn skeptical but I can't prove a negative, and if someone makes such a widget, it's a great hack from my view. Good luck. Herb -- Herbert R. Johnson, New Jersey in the USA http://www.retrotechnology.com OR .net preserve, recover, restore 1970's computing email: hjohnson AT retrotechnology DOT com or try later herbjohnson AT retrotechnology DOT info
Herb, I just hit "Reply All", which seems to include the list as well as the person. I’ve had to do this with other mailing lists where a direct reply only goes to the person and therefore have a habit of doing Reply All for all mailing lists. Therefore you being CC'd was not intentional. The schematics are very clearly listed in the table of contents but are missing from the end of the manual. Oh well. Maybe reaching out to the person who scanned the original set would be worth my time, as it would not surprise me if these were fold-outs. Alternatively I have two of these printers and might open one up and take a look at the interface board. There are clearly two processors on that board, based on some of the text in the aforementioned service manual. Anyway, regarding references, Page 229 of the November 26, 1991 issue of PC Magazine [1] states the following: "The [NEC] Silentwriter2 990 is rated at 8 pages per minute and uses the Canon LBP-UX engine. This engine is functionally similar to the familiar SX engine used by the HP LaserJet III (and uses standard EP-S toner cartridges), but is built to fit in a more compact case." There are other references that indicate this print engine was used in the NEC Silentwriter2 990, and one that indicates it was used in the Silentwriter2 290 and Silentwriter2 260 as well [2], but I can’t find any other printers with it, at least with a cursory search. David [1] https://books.google.com/books?id=wEufoGXlUxUC&lpg=PT242&ots=ZbNWdLZcp6&dq=%... <https://books.google.com/books?id=wEufoGXlUxUC&lpg=PT242&ots=ZbNWdLZcp6&dq=%22lbp-ux%22%20print&pg=PT243#v=onepage&q="lbp-ux" print&f=false> . [2] Peter N. Bernstock. "The handbook for microcomputer technicians", page 436.
On Jun 18, 2018, at 8:00 PM, Herb Johnson via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
On 6/18/2018 4:39 PM, David Ryskalczyk wrote:
Here is the service manual for the printer. Unfortunately the schematics are missing from this set. I wouldn’t mind seeing what the Interface Circuit consists of. David
I dont' know if David Ryskalczy was asking me to respond, to his finding the service manual, but I got an email specifically to me and not just to the list, which isn't usual. I did say "read the manual". If he has a serious interest in the printer, my apologies if my remarks about lack-of-interest were misdirected his way.
I looked at the service manual, which apparently is for the mechanics and electronics that manages paper and the laser-written image on the drum and so forth. The phrase "print engine" doesn't appear in the document, nor the name "Canon" (except once, regarding paper). But I'd suggest this manual is the OEM's "print engine" service manual; intended for field-service to diagnose and physically repair this printer, by adjustments and module-replacements. And not, for electronic-component level repairs and therefore no need for schematics. If the OEM (presumably Canon) produced this manual, it's not unusual in the era that they don't put their name on it, or on the parts.
But what I see in that manual, and in some associated documents on site, are consistent to me with the notion that the Next "print engine" is like the HP LaserJet II/III "print engine" which is better-known to be a Canon SX OEM product or design. That's all I know. If someone affirms the Canon/NeXT association further than my evidence, I'd not mind knowing.
As to the question of some thing, that could operate some laser printer with the signals from the NeXT computer "laser printer" port? I don't know about that. I'm damn skeptical but I can't prove a negative, and if someone makes such a widget, it's a great hack from my view. Good luck.
Herb
-- Herbert R. Johnson, New Jersey in the USA http://www.retrotechnology.com OR .net preserve, recover, restore 1970's computing email: hjohnson AT retrotechnology DOT com or try later herbjohnson AT retrotechnology DOT info
On 06/18/2018 08:00 PM, Herb Johnson via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
But what I see in that manual, and in some associated documents on site, are consistent to me with the notion that the Next "print engine" is like the HP LaserJet II/III "print engine" which is better-known to be a Canon SX OEM product or design. That's all I know. If someone affirms the Canon/NeXT association further than my evidence, I'd not mind knowing.
The NeXT printer is built around a Canon SX, modified in some way for 400DPI output.
As to the question of some thing, that could operate some laser printer with the signals from the NeXT computer "laser printer" port? I don't know about that. I'm damn skeptical but I can't prove a negative, and if someone makes such a widget, it's a great hack from my view. Good luck.
Agreed. And kinda pointless, because they can print to LPR/LPD printers just fine. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
Agree that it's far simpler to just get a network connected laser printer that understands standard protocols. I'm still using a LaserJet 4 as my main printer. It's been "replaced" three times, all of its replacements died! I finally had Ian do maintenance on it and just accepted that it's destined to be my main printer forever :P Thanks, Jonathan On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 10:25 PM, Dave McGuire via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
On 06/18/2018 08:00 PM, Herb Johnson via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
But what I see in that manual, and in some associated documents on site, are consistent to me with the notion that the Next "print engine" is like the HP LaserJet II/III "print engine" which is better-known to be a Canon SX OEM product or design. That's all I know. If someone affirms the Canon/NeXT association further than my evidence, I'd not mind knowing.
The NeXT printer is built around a Canon SX, modified in some way for 400DPI output.
As to the question of some thing, that could operate some laser printer with the signals from the NeXT computer "laser printer" port? I don't know about that. I'm damn skeptical but I can't prove a negative, and if someone makes such a widget, it's a great hack from my view. Good luck.
Agreed. And kinda pointless, because they can print to LPR/LPD printers just fine.
-Dave
-- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
On Tue, Jun 19, 2018, 5:40 PM systems_glitch via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
Agree that it's far simpler to just get a network connected laser printer that understands standard protocols. I'm still using a LaserJet 4 as my main printer. It's been "replaced" three times, all of its replacements died! I finally had Ian do maintenance on it and just accepted that it's destined to be my main printer forever :P
Thanks, Jonathan
I too still use a laserjet 4 for printing invoices and envelopes. B
participants (9)
-
Bill Degnan -
Dave McGuire -
David Ryskalczyk -
Ethan O'Toole -
Evan Koblentz -
Herb Johnson -
Jonathan Gevaryahu -
systems_glitch -
Tony Bogan