Interesting Game Show Tidbit
I was not aware of this fact... as described on the Tic Tac Dough Wikipedia page. "The gameboard on the original 1950s series used rolling drums (each containing the same nine categories) to display subject categories, with light displays beneath them to indicate X's and O's. When *Tic-Tac-Dough* was revived in 1978, the gameboard was made up of nine Apple II <https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_II> monitors linked to a central Altair 8800 <https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altair_8800> computer, which displayed the categories, X's and O's. The 1990 series used a completely computer generated setup." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tic-Tac-Dough Jeff Salzman
revived in 1978, the gameboard was made up of nine Apple II <https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_II> monitors linked to a central Altair 8800 <https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altair_8800> computer, which displayed the categories, X's and O's. The 1990 series used a completely computer generated setup."
Why not juse use another Apple II as the master computer? - Ethan
On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 11:33 AM, Ethan via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
revived in 1978, the gameboard was made up of nine Apple II
<https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_II> monitors linked to a central Altair 8800 <https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altair_8800> computer, which displayed the categories, X's and O's. The 1990 series used a completely computer generated setup."
Why not juse use another Apple II as the master computer?
- Ethan
The description strictly mentions "Apple Monitors", I don't see any mention of Apple ][ computers. I see this was in 1978, and the Altair being a S-100 system, it's capable of having a configuration with multiple monitors. This is done by installing multiple video cards, and the memory map has each one addressable separately. There's plenty of slots available for this, and the resolution was probably very low to require more than 2KB of Ram per card. Since it was Apple Monitors, it must have been the monochrome version, so that's a lower requirement for video memory. Whichever software was used, each image can be loaded into one of the 9 video cards. This would have been a very impressive system to, not usually found in the hobbyist realm , more like the industrial field. Dan
someone should make one of these! On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 11:46 AM, Dan Roganti via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 11:33 AM, Ethan via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
revived in 1978, the gameboard was made up of nine Apple II
<https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_II> monitors linked to a central Altair 8800 <https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altair_8800> computer, which displayed the categories, X's and O's. The 1990 series used a completely computer generated setup."
Why not juse use another Apple II as the master computer?
- Ethan
The description strictly mentions "Apple Monitors", I don't see any mention of Apple ][ computers. I see this was in 1978, and the Altair being a S-100 system, it's capable of having a configuration with multiple monitors. This is done by installing multiple video cards, and the memory map has each one addressable separately. There's plenty of slots available for this, and the resolution was probably very low to require more than 2KB of Ram per card. Since it was Apple Monitors, it must have been the monochrome version, so that's a lower requirement for video memory. Whichever software was used, each image can be loaded into one of the 9 video cards. This would have been a very impressive system to, not usually found in the hobbyist realm , more like the industrial field. Dan
On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 11:57 AM, Bill Degnan via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
someone should make one of these!
yea but where do we find 9 of the same video cards, it would keep the development from getting insane I have 9 cards but none of them are the same model, unless we clone some more boards. Plus I would suggest using an Altair which boots CP/M To keep the software development manageable. Assembly can still be used, if not Basic or Fortran, but then you can keep all the of bitmaps saved on floppy. Dan -- _ ____ / \__/ Scotty, We Need More Power !! \_/ _\__ Aye, Cap'n, but we've only got 80 columns !!
I would almost bet that the display cards were Cromemco Dazzlers. There were modifications to the boards that could be made to gen-lock their signals. I've sent an email to Harry Garland and Terry Walker to see if they know for sure. They "hand held" several early television adopters, mostly weather broadcasts. That being said, I have three operating Dazzlers and an umbuilt kit, how many others are out there? Bill S. -----Original Message----- From: vcf-midatlantic [mailto:vcf-midatlantic-bounces@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org] On Behalf Of Dan Roganti via vcf-midatlantic Sent: Monday, January 29, 2018 12:43 PM To: vcf-midatlantic Cc: Dan Roganti Subject: Re: [vcf-midatlantic] Interesting Game Show Tidbit On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 11:57 AM, Bill Degnan via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
someone should make one of these!
yea but where do we find 9 of the same video cards, it would keep the development from getting insane I have 9 cards but none of them are the same model, unless we clone some more boards. Plus I would suggest using an Altair which boots CP/M To keep the software development manageable. Assembly can still be used, if not Basic or Fortran, but then you can keep all the of bitmaps saved on floppy. Dan -- _ ____ / \__/ Scotty, We Need More Power !! \_/ _\__ Aye, Cap'n, but we've only got 80 columns !! --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus
The TV show had color screens. Along with color backgrounds on the text being displayed in each screen, there was a multi-color tunnel effect used during the bonus game, and a colorful (but pixelated) dragon appeared if the player picked the wrong box during the bonus game. The video here shows some of the action and graphics, but as a special audience participation version of the bonus round. https://youtu.be/2UWZ6mcjG98 On Jan 29, 2018 11:46 AM, "Dan Roganti" <ragooman@gmail.com> wrote:
Since it was Apple Monitors, it must have been the monochrome version, so
that's a lower requirement for video memory.
On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 12:46 PM, Jeff Salzman via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
The TV show had color screens. Along with color backgrounds on the text being displayed in each screen, there was a multi-color tunnel effect used during the bonus game, and a colorful (but pixelated) dragon appeared if the player picked the wrong box during the bonus game.
The video here shows some of the action and graphics, but as a special audience participation version of the bonus round.
Is this really from the 70s edition of the show or the 90s edition I see some color animation at 2:11 This could have still been possible using the Cromemco Dazzler on the late 70s There were practically no other S-100 color video cards off-the-shelf in the late 70s Unless they designed their own video board. Dan -- _ ____ / \__/ Scotty, We Need More Power !! \_/ _\__ Aye, Cap'n, but we've only got 80 columns !!
Could have also been controlling Apple II's over serial. That's what Mouse did with the video matrix project that we brought to VCFE several years back. Nine Apple II computers, each connected to it's own monitor, controlled via serial by a central PC (some random old Pentium II) running Linux. https://i.imgur.com/CNTz5HA.jpg The advantage of the Apple II is that it's very easy to run local commands on the computer by the way the firmware can link the serial port to the console. So, you can actually have the individual II's doing whatever you want. Mouse wrote some software to do scrolling text, etc. -Ian On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 12:57 PM, Dan Roganti via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 12:46 PM, Jeff Salzman via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
The TV show had color screens. Along with color backgrounds on the text being displayed in each screen, there was a multi-color tunnel effect used during the bonus game, and a colorful (but pixelated) dragon appeared if the player picked the wrong box during the bonus game.
The video here shows some of the action and graphics, but as a special audience participation version of the bonus round.
Is this really from the 70s edition of the show or the 90s edition I see some color animation at 2:11 This could have still been possible using the Cromemco Dazzler on the late 70s There were practically no other S-100 color video cards off-the-shelf in the late 70s Unless they designed their own video board. Dan
-- _ ____ / \__/ Scotty, We Need More Power !! \_/ _\__ Aye, Cap'n, but we've only got 80 columns !!
that's what I was thinking, I agree with Ian. On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 1:06 PM, Ian Primus via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
Could have also been controlling Apple II's over serial. That's what Mouse did with the video matrix project that we brought to VCFE several years back. Nine Apple II computers, each connected to it's own monitor, controlled via serial by a central PC (some random old Pentium II) running Linux. https://i.imgur.com/CNTz5HA.jpg
The advantage of the Apple II is that it's very easy to run local commands on the computer by the way the firmware can link the serial port to the console. So, you can actually have the individual II's doing whatever you want. Mouse wrote some software to do scrolling text, etc.
-Ian
On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 12:57 PM, Dan Roganti via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 12:46 PM, Jeff Salzman via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
The TV show had color screens. Along with color backgrounds on the text being displayed in each screen, there was a multi-color tunnel effect used during the bonus game, and a colorful (but pixelated) dragon appeared if the player picked the wrong box during the bonus game.
The video here shows some of the action and graphics, but as a special audience participation version of the bonus round.
Is this really from the 70s edition of the show or the 90s edition I see some color animation at 2:11 This could have still been possible using the Cromemco Dazzler on the late 70s There were practically no other S-100 color video cards off-the-shelf in the late 70s Unless they designed their own video board. Dan
-- _ ____ / \__/ Scotty, We Need More Power !! \_/ _\__ Aye, Cap'n, but we've only got 80 columns !!
It was the late 70s/early 80s edition. I watched the show religiously as a teenager during that time. Here's a 1978 episode showing the board in action (around the 22:00 minute mark). On Jan 29, 2018 12:57 PM, "Dan Roganti" <ragooman@gmail.com> wrote:
Is this really from the 70s edition of the show or the 90s edition I see some color animation at 2:11 This could have still been possible using the Cromemco Dazzler on the late 70s There were practically no other S-100 color video cards off-the-shelf in the late 70s Unless they designed their own video board. Dan
And now... the actual LINK to the episode, cued to the Bonus Game with full color graphics: https://youtu.be/5vfRGRQbRiM?t=21m42s On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 1:09 PM, <jsalzman@gmail.com> wrote:
It was the late 70s/early 80s edition. I watched the show religiously as a teenager during that time.
Here's a 1978 episode showing the board in action (around the 22:00 minute mark).
On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 1:22 PM, Jeff Salzman via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
And now... the actual LINK to the episode, cued to the Bonus Game with full color graphics:
https://youtu.be/5vfRGRQbRiM?t=21m42s
On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 1:09 PM, <jsalzman@gmail.com> wrote:
It was the late 70s/early 80s edition. I watched the show religiously as a teenager during that time.
Here's a 1978 episode showing the board in action (around the 22:00 minute mark).
sure does look like they're using the Dazzler the pixels show a deeper color palette than the Apple ][ with the same resolution Dan -- _ ____ / \__/ Scotty, We Need More Power !! \_/ _\__ Aye, Cap'n, but we've only got 80 columns !!
I have not heard back from Terry or Harry yet, but I can explain how you could produce those displays with a Dazzler and a 4MHz Z80. You store all of the images in high speed (relatively for the time anyway) ROM. Then you swap the image address on the vertical rescan. Can you do that with an Apple II? Bill S. -----Original Message----- From: vcf-midatlantic [mailto:vcf-midatlantic-bounces@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org] On Behalf Of Dan Roganti via vcf-midatlantic Sent: Monday, January 29, 2018 1:33 PM To: Jeff S; vcf-midatlantic Cc: Dan Roganti Subject: Re: [vcf-midatlantic] Interesting Game Show Tidbit On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 1:22 PM, Jeff Salzman via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
And now... the actual LINK to the episode, cued to the Bonus Game with full color graphics:
https://youtu.be/5vfRGRQbRiM?t=21m42s
On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 1:09 PM, <jsalzman@gmail.com> wrote:
It was the late 70s/early 80s edition. I watched the show religiously as a teenager during that time.
Here's a 1978 episode showing the board in action (around the 22:00 minute mark).
sure does look like they're using the Dazzler the pixels show a deeper color palette than the Apple ][ with the same resolution Dan -- _ ____ / \__/ Scotty, We Need More Power !! \_/ _\__ Aye, Cap'n, but we've only got 80 columns !! --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Apple II is capable of page flipping to create animation. The fragmented screen memory map makes it a bit more challenging. On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 3:55 PM, William Sudbrink via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
I have not heard back from Terry or Harry yet, but I can explain how you could produce those displays with a Dazzler and a 4MHz Z80. You store all of the images in high speed (relatively for the time anyway) ROM. Then you swap the image address on the vertical rescan. Can you do that with an Apple II?
Bill S.
-----Original Message----- From: vcf-midatlantic [mailto:vcf-midatlantic-bounces@lists. vintagecomputerfederation.org] On Behalf Of Dan Roganti via vcf-midatlantic Sent: Monday, January 29, 2018 1:33 PM To: Jeff S; vcf-midatlantic Cc: Dan Roganti Subject: Re: [vcf-midatlantic] Interesting Game Show Tidbit
On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 1:22 PM, Jeff Salzman via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
And now... the actual LINK to the episode, cued to the Bonus Game with full color graphics:
https://youtu.be/5vfRGRQbRiM?t=21m42s
On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 1:09 PM, <jsalzman@gmail.com> wrote:
It was the late 70s/early 80s edition. I watched the show religiously as a teenager during that time.
Here's a 1978 episode showing the board in action (around the 22:00 minute mark).
sure does look like they're using the Dazzler the pixels show a deeper color palette than the Apple ][ with the same resolution Dan -- _ ____ / \__/ Scotty, We Need More Power !! \_/ _\__ Aye, Cap'n, but we've only got 80 columns !!
--- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Sorry, getting to this thread late, but Bob Bishop created the Apple II part of the Tic Tac Dough game board. He talked about it in his 2011 KansasFest talk. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlsHGmijFP0&t=35m39s It was done with 9 Apple IIs coordinated by either an IMSAI or an Altair, Bob was responsible for the Apple side, someone else did the 8080 side. -Paul
On Jan 29, 2018, at 4:14 PM, Dean Notarnicola via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
Apple II is capable of page flipping to create animation. The fragmented screen memory map makes it a bit more challenging.
On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 3:55 PM, William Sudbrink via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
I have not heard back from Terry or Harry yet, but I can explain how you could produce those displays with a Dazzler and a 4MHz Z80. You store all of the images in high speed (relatively for the time anyway) ROM. Then you swap the image address on the vertical rescan. Can you do that with an Apple II?
Bill S.
-----Original Message----- From: vcf-midatlantic [mailto:vcf-midatlantic-bounces@lists. vintagecomputerfederation.org] On Behalf Of Dan Roganti via vcf-midatlantic Sent: Monday, January 29, 2018 1:33 PM To: Jeff S; vcf-midatlantic Cc: Dan Roganti Subject: Re: [vcf-midatlantic] Interesting Game Show Tidbit
On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 1:22 PM, Jeff Salzman via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
And now... the actual LINK to the episode, cued to the Bonus Game with full color graphics:
https://youtu.be/5vfRGRQbRiM?t=21m42s
On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 1:09 PM, <jsalzman@gmail.com> wrote:
It was the late 70s/early 80s edition. I watched the show religiously as a teenager during that time.
Here's a 1978 episode showing the board in action (around the 22:00 minute mark).
sure does look like they're using the Dazzler the pixels show a deeper color palette than the Apple ][ with the same resolution Dan -- _ ____ / \__/ Scotty, We Need More Power !! \_/ _\__ Aye, Cap'n, but we've only got 80 columns !!
--- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus
On Tue, Jan 30, 2018 at 2:22 AM, Hagstrom, Paul via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
Sorry, getting to this thread late, but Bob Bishop created the Apple II part of the Tic Tac Dough game board.
He talked about it in his 2011 KansasFest talk.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlsHGmijFP0&t=35m39s
It was done with 9 Apple IIs coordinated by either an IMSAI or an Altair, Bob was responsible for the Apple side, someone else did the 8080 side.
-Paul
interesting, One of the things I neglected is that a disadvantage of the Dazzler is the requirement of 2 slots per video card since it was a 2 board set. With the amount of extra space within that pcb layout of this board, you think they owned the ranch, as compared to other video cards.. And the max slots slots in a Altair or Imsai is 18 slots, so there's no room left even for a CPU card, with 9 video cards. Even the competing products required additional slots to add more bitplanes to get color. It was until a couple years later did they have single board video card with color, the Microsprite with the TMS9918. You could easily accomplish this with 9 video cards and still have enough slots for CPU, Memory, Floppy Controller for a CP/M system Apparently that missed the time-frame window for this Tic Tac Dough project. Dan -- _ ____ / \__/ Scotty, We Need More Power !! \_/ _\__ Aye, Cap'n, but we've only got 80 columns !!
Dan Roganti wrote:
One of the things I neglected is that a disadvantage of the Dazzler is the requirement of 2 slots per video card since it was a 2 board set. <snip> max slots slots in a Altair or Imsai is 18 slots
Harry pointed out the same thing to me (duh). I was going to post a message later today. Bill S. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Harry pointed out
Who's that? On Jan 30, 2018 11:06 AM, "William Sudbrink via vcf-midatlantic" < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
Dan Roganti wrote:
One of the things I neglected is that a disadvantage of the Dazzler is the requirement of 2 slots per video card since it was a 2 board set. <snip> max slots slots in a Altair or Imsai is 18 slots
Harry pointed out the same thing to me (duh). I was going to post a message later today.
Bill S.
--- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Harry Garland, founder of Cromemco. He has been working with me on my Cyclops restorations. Bill S. From: Evan Koblentz [mailto:evan@vcfed.org] Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2018 12:29 PM To: Jonathan Gevaryahu via vcf-midatlantic Cc: William Sudbrink Subject: Re: [vcf-midatlantic] Interesting Game Show Tidbit
Harry pointed out
Who's that? On Jan 30, 2018 11:06 AM, "William Sudbrink via vcf-midatlantic" <vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote: Dan Roganti wrote:
One of the things I neglected is that a disadvantage of the Dazzler is the requirement of 2 slots per video card since it was a 2 board set. <snip> max slots slots in a Altair or Imsai is 18 slots
Harry pointed out the same thing to me (duh). I was going to post a message later today. Bill S. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus
On Tue, Jan 30, 2018 at 12:35 PM, William Sudbrink via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
Harry Garland, founder of Cromemco. He has been working with me on my Cyclops restorations.
yep, and should be a guest speaker they're all getting up there in age you know Dan -- _ ____ / \__/ Scotty, We Need More Power !! \_/ _\__ Aye, Cap'n, but we've only got 80 columns !!
yep, and should be a guest speaker they're all getting up there in age
My thoughts exactly. On Jan 30, 2018 12:38 PM, "Dan Roganti" <ragooman@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, Jan 30, 2018 at 12:35 PM, William Sudbrink via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
Harry Garland, founder of Cromemco. He has been working with me on my Cyclops restorations.
yep, and should be a guest speaker they're all getting up there in age you know Dan
-- _ ____ / \__/ Scotty, We Need More Power !! \_/ _\__ Aye, Cap'n, but we've only got 80 columns !!
You could also copy the images from ROM to bank switched RAM during setup and then bank switch the RAM to switch/animate the images. Bill S. -----Original Message----- From: William Sudbrink [mailto:wh.sudbrink@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, January 29, 2018 3:55 PM To: 'vcf-midatlantic' Subject: RE: [vcf-midatlantic] Interesting Game Show Tidbit I have not heard back from Terry or Harry yet, but I can explain how you could produce those displays with a Dazzler and a 4MHz Z80. You store all of the images in high speed (relatively for the time anyway) ROM. Then you swap the image address on the vertical rescan. Can you do that with an Apple II? Bill S. -----Original Message----- From: vcf-midatlantic [mailto:vcf-midatlantic-bounces@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org] On Behalf Of Dan Roganti via vcf-midatlantic Sent: Monday, January 29, 2018 1:33 PM To: Jeff S; vcf-midatlantic Cc: Dan Roganti Subject: Re: [vcf-midatlantic] Interesting Game Show Tidbit On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 1:22 PM, Jeff Salzman via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
And now... the actual LINK to the episode, cued to the Bonus Game with full color graphics:
https://youtu.be/5vfRGRQbRiM?t=21m42s
On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 1:09 PM, <jsalzman@gmail.com> wrote:
It was the late 70s/early 80s edition. I watched the show religiously as a teenager during that time.
Here's a 1978 episode showing the board in action (around the 22:00 minute mark).
sure does look like they're using the Dazzler the pixels show a deeper color palette than the Apple ][ with the same resolution Dan -- _ ____ / \__/ Scotty, We Need More Power !! \_/ _\__ Aye, Cap'n, but we've only got 80 columns !! --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus
participants (9)
-
Bill Degnan -
Dan Roganti -
Dean Notarnicola -
Ethan -
Evan Koblentz -
Hagstrom, Paul -
Ian Primus -
jsalzman＠gmail.com -
William Sudbrink