Steve Dompier's coding...
[Cromemco Dazzler Dazzlemation...] .... Mr. Dompier hand wrote that program LITERALLY (hand, pencil, paper), no editor, no assembler. He then toggled it in (or maybe raw keyed it in with a primitive ROM monitor) and [used paper tape to save/restore it]
I agree, it's informative to look at such code, to see methods of coding. But that's normal activity, given the era. When you don't have a computer with disk drives, an assembler program, a text editor...that's what you did, that's what we did in the era. Much of the earliest 8080 code (6502, 6800, 8008, 4004, 4040...) was hand coded. MOst of the early single-boards, didn't have resident assemblers. There was no choice, but this is how one understood the operation and programming of these processors. They were little logic engines; the code is the logic. It would be a lecture, to explain that further, and the history behind it. Some people today, still code by hand. Many 1802 COSMAC computer owners do that - I support some of that work. Example: I spent a few days recently, disassembling an 1802 FORTH implementation. About 1/3 of it was 1802 assembler; I used a disassembler for that part. The rest was just words - 16 bit addresses, one after another - which represented FORTH definitions. Those, I hand-aligned, determined the dictionary location, and "decoded" which FORTH word was represented. I learned a lot about setting up FORTH with an 1802. Herb -- Herbert R. Johnson, New Jersey USA http://www.retrotechnology.com OR .net
Herb Johnson wrote:
[Cromemco Dazzler Dazzlemation...] .... Mr. Dompier hand wrote that program LITERALLY (hand, pencil, paper), no editor, no assembler. He then toggled it in (or maybe raw keyed it in with a primitive ROM monitor) and [used paper tape to save/restore it]
I agree, it's informative to look at such code, to see methods of coding. But that's normal activity, given the era.
And I agree with you. I did some myself. I was trying to interest some of the people who might not be aware. I've exhibited my IMSAIs and Altairs a number of times. On numerous occasions, I've heard comments like "those front panels are pretty but you couldn't really do anything with them". I'm pretty sure now that Mr. Dompier toggled Dazzlemation into the machine. The recollection is that he didn't get a 4FDC until later, so he probably didn't have a monitor in ROM. Bill S.
On May 5, 2016, at 5:00 PM, Douglas Crawford via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
It would be a lecture, to explain that further, and the history behind it.
Great post, Herb, and I think that would be a great VCFE lecture, then a book deal. :)
I would buy that book
DC
Thanks to Bill Sudbrink for starting this thread, and to other participants for their response and encouragements for some kind of "lecture" on this subject. Bill notes he got questions about IMSAI/Altair front panels. I'm often asked, why are S-100 cards so big? Why the "ugly boxes of big boards"? It's all related. As I see it, I'd talk about how early microcomputing (1970's, pre and early CP/M era) was mostly what I'd call "resource scarce". The contrast would be post IBM-PC, certainly 1990's, I'd call "resource adequate", and later "resource rich". In the early 70's, everything was expensive in terms of then-current income, and then-current technology. Memory. Circuit boards - big, to hold all the TTL chips needed. Low speed of processors. Speed and real cost of storage and display. And 100 pins? Sort of circumstantial, but it's a way to bring out all the decoded 8080 lines and features, so other cards didn't need to decode them, and to manage a front panel. As Dave McGuire and others pointed out, front-panels were necessary as I/O devices; "storage" was pencil and paper as others noted. Good work could be done, as writing 1K or 2K or 4K programs was well within the capacity of one person, working in his/her head, in octal (or hex, or binary). (I have modern examples of this, in 1802 coding.) But, once there were ROM monitors, terminals or text-video, and some mass storage (cassette and diskettes), a front panel was an extra expense, time consuming, complicated. It went away. The Ithaca Intersystem DPS-1 I exhibited, across from Bill's Cyclops display, was the last S-100 front-panel system (I think), produced in 1980. Herb -- Herbert R. Johnson, New Jersey USA http://www.retrotechnology.com OR .net preservation of 1970's computing email: hjohnson AAT retrotechnology DOTT com alternate: herbjohnson ATT retrotechnology DOTT info
On Fri, May 6, 2016 at 10:05 AM, Herb Johnson via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
Thanks to Bill Sudbrink for starting this thread, and to other participants for their response and encouragements for some kind of "lecture" on this subject. Bill notes he got questions about IMSAI/Altair front panels. I'm often asked, why are S-100 cards so big? Why the "ugly boxes of big boards"? It's all related.
As I see it, I'd talk about how early microcomputing (1970's, pre and early CP/M era) was mostly what I'd call "resource scarce". The contrast would be post IBM-PC, certainly 1990's, I'd call "resource adequate", and later "resource rich".
In the early 70's, everything was expensive in terms of then-current income, and then-current technology. Memory. Circuit boards - big, to hold all the TTL chips needed. Low speed of processors. Speed and real cost of storage and display. And 100 pins? Sort of circumstantial, but it's a way to bring out all the decoded 8080 lines and features, so other cards didn't need to decode them, and to manage a front panel.
As Dave McGuire and others pointed out, front-panels were necessary as I/O devices; "storage" was pencil and paper as others noted. Good work could be done, as writing 1K or 2K or 4K programs was well within the capacity of one person, working in his/her head, in octal (or hex, or binary). (I have modern examples of this, in 1802 coding.)
But, once there were ROM monitors, terminals or text-video, and some mass storage (cassette and diskettes), a front panel was an extra expense, time consuming, complicated. It went away. The Ithaca Intersystem DPS-1 I exhibited, across from Bill's Cyclops display, was the last S-100 front-panel system (I think), produced in 1980.
Herb
thank Herb for putting things into perspective, it helps. Which is why I keep your website on my short list, when it comes to rejuvenating my memory cells :) Another perspective which I think is often neglected in history books is the emotion. We had a school computer, Honeywell H1646 in the 70s This is the timesharing version of the H-316, except it had dual H-316 minicomputers in a rack. The H-316 is one of the many systems used as a IMP for Arpanet. Plus the associated hard drives, Mag tap, Line printers, and terminals in the Lab. So you would spend all day here, without any astonishment because that was the norm of the day. But then you come home, working on a homebrew S-100 machine, And you experience that enormous elated feeling because you just upgraded your machine, with a parallel ascii terminal keyboard for the first the time, another homebrew project and you can start typing in your code Dan
I remember that feeling. Its why I got into computing. It's a feeling that is hard to recapture in the modern age of auto configuring hardware and drivers. This is why I love vintage computing, even when it's retrofitting a modern part to an old machine to extend its usefulness; it helps recapture that magic I experienced when it was all new and exciting. On Friday, May 6, 2016, Dan Roganti via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
On Fri, May 6, 2016 at 10:05 AM, Herb Johnson via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org <javascript:;>> wrote:
Thanks to Bill Sudbrink for starting this thread, and to other participants for their response and encouragements for some kind of "lecture" on this subject. Bill notes he got questions about IMSAI/Altair front panels. I'm often asked, why are S-100 cards so big? Why the "ugly boxes of big boards"? It's all related.
As I see it, I'd talk about how early microcomputing (1970's, pre and early CP/M era) was mostly what I'd call "resource scarce". The contrast would be post IBM-PC, certainly 1990's, I'd call "resource adequate", and later "resource rich".
In the early 70's, everything was expensive in terms of then-current income, and then-current technology. Memory. Circuit boards - big, to hold all the TTL chips needed. Low speed of processors. Speed and real cost of storage and display. And 100 pins? Sort of circumstantial, but it's a way to bring out all the decoded 8080 lines and features, so other cards didn't need to decode them, and to manage a front panel.
As Dave McGuire and others pointed out, front-panels were necessary as I/O devices; "storage" was pencil and paper as others noted. Good work could be done, as writing 1K or 2K or 4K programs was well within the capacity of one person, working in his/her head, in octal (or hex, or binary). (I have modern examples of this, in 1802 coding.)
But, once there were ROM monitors, terminals or text-video, and some mass storage (cassette and diskettes), a front panel was an extra expense, time consuming, complicated. It went away. The Ithaca Intersystem DPS-1 I exhibited, across from Bill's Cyclops display, was the last S-100 front-panel system (I think), produced in 1980.
Herb
thank Herb for putting things into perspective, it helps. Which is why I keep your website on my short list, when it comes to rejuvenating my memory cells :) Another perspective which I think is often neglected in history books is the emotion. We had a school computer, Honeywell H1646 in the 70s This is the timesharing version of the H-316, except it had dual H-316 minicomputers in a rack. The H-316 is one of the many systems used as a IMP for Arpanet. Plus the associated hard drives, Mag tap, Line printers, and terminals in the Lab. So you would spend all day here, without any astonishment because that was the norm of the day. But then you come home, working on a homebrew S-100 machine, And you experience that enormous elated feeling because you just upgraded your machine, with a parallel ascii terminal keyboard for the first the time, another homebrew project and you can start typing in your code Dan
Hey folks- that quiz could be a great activity at a VCF festival- distribute a listing like this, of historical significance and compete on the quiz. Might work! On Fri, May 6, 2016 at 11:17 AM, Dean Notarnicola via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
I remember that feeling. Its why I got into computing. It's a feeling that is hard to recapture in the modern age of auto configuring hardware and drivers. This is why I love vintage computing, even when it's retrofitting a modern part to an old machine to extend its usefulness; it helps recapture that magic I experienced when it was all new and exciting.
On Friday, May 6, 2016, Dan Roganti via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
On Fri, May 6, 2016 at 10:05 AM, Herb Johnson via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org <javascript:;>> wrote:
Thanks to Bill Sudbrink for starting this thread, and to other participants for their response and encouragements for some kind of "lecture" on this subject. Bill notes he got questions about IMSAI/Altair front panels. I'm often asked, why are S-100 cards so big? Why the "ugly boxes of big boards"? It's all related.
As I see it, I'd talk about how early microcomputing (1970's, pre and early CP/M era) was mostly what I'd call "resource scarce". The contrast would be post IBM-PC, certainly 1990's, I'd call "resource adequate", and later "resource rich".
In the early 70's, everything was expensive in terms of then-current income, and then-current technology. Memory. Circuit boards - big, to hold all the TTL chips needed. Low speed of processors. Speed and real cost of storage and display. And 100 pins? Sort of circumstantial, but it's a way to bring out all the decoded 8080 lines and features, so other cards didn't need to decode them, and to manage a front panel.
As Dave McGuire and others pointed out, front-panels were necessary as I/O devices; "storage" was pencil and paper as others noted. Good work could be done, as writing 1K or 2K or 4K programs was well within the capacity of one person, working in his/her head, in octal (or hex, or binary). (I have modern examples of this, in 1802 coding.)
But, once there were ROM monitors, terminals or text-video, and some mass storage (cassette and diskettes), a front panel was an extra expense, time consuming, complicated. It went away. The Ithaca Intersystem DPS-1 I exhibited, across from Bill's Cyclops display, was the last S-100 front-panel system (I think), produced in 1980.
Herb
thank Herb for putting things into perspective, it helps. Which is why I keep your website on my short list, when it comes to rejuvenating my memory cells :) Another perspective which I think is often neglected in history books is the emotion. We had a school computer, Honeywell H1646 in the 70s This is the timesharing version of the H-316, except it had dual H-316 minicomputers in a rack. The H-316 is one of the many systems used as a IMP for Arpanet. Plus the associated hard drives, Mag tap, Line printers, and terminals in the Lab. So you would spend all day here, without any astonishment because that was the norm of the day. But then you come home, working on a homebrew S-100 machine, And you experience that enormous elated feeling because you just upgraded your machine, with a parallel ascii terminal keyboard for the first the time, another homebrew project and you can start typing in your code Dan
There used to be a "Nerd Trivia Challenge" at VCF West. Didn't include that at any of our VCF East shows because it is a lot of work and appeals only to insiders, not so much to the general public. Maybe something we can do at Festivus. :)
Ah, yes I can see where it might not be for general public- even IF they are very into retro, its not for everyone. On Fri, May 6, 2016 at 1:17 PM, Evan Koblentz via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
There used to be a "Nerd Trivia Challenge" at VCF West. Didn't include that at any of our VCF East shows because it is a lot of work and appeals only to insiders, not so much to the general public. Maybe something we can do at Festivus. :)
On 5/6/2016 1:26 PM, Douglas Crawford via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
Ah, yes I can see where it might not be for general public- even IF they are very into retro, its not for everyone. I don't know. It would be a bad day if I was a contestant on Jeopardy, but I certainly enjoy watching it. I doubt I could match the knowledge of most on this list, but I think I'd enjoy watching them go toe to toe. I'll take Vintage Mainframes for $500!
-Adam PS: Without giving out any spoilers, there's a shout out to our favorite hobby in the ReallyPopular<tm> movie released today.
I don't know. It would be a bad day if I was a contestant on Jeopardy, but I certainly enjoy watching it. I doubt I could match the knowledge of most on this list, but I think I'd enjoy watching them go toe to toe.
We should play in teams. For example, I know history but not much tech, someone may know eight-bitters but nothing about minicomputers, etc.
I have the game King Chip which is sort of a trivial pursuit game based on early computing. I can bring that with me. Original Message From:vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org Sent:May 6, 2016 1:17 PM To:vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org Reply-to:vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org Cc:evan@snarc.net Subject:[vcf-midatlantic] nerd trivia challenge There used to be a "Nerd Trivia Challenge" at VCF West. Didn't include that at any of our VCF East shows because it is a lot of work and appeals only to insiders, not so much to the general public. Maybe something we can do at Festivus. :)
You read my mind. I was just joking with Dan R. about this last night. Do you have a format or source of questions? Who would be the judge? On Fri, May 6, 2016 at 1:17 PM, Evan Koblentz via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
There used to be a "Nerd Trivia Challenge" at VCF West. Didn't include that at any of our VCF East shows because it is a lot of work and appeals only to insiders, not so much to the general public. Maybe something we can do at Festivus. :)
or source of questions?
There's the game someone else mentioned, and I have a copy of "The Official Computer Bowl Trivia Book".
Pulled the book off its shelf. Turns out the questions are categorized. We could play Jeopardy-style, or Trivial Pursuit style, or make our own style.
Cool! Save it for Festivus! Maybe Jeopardy style or even "Cards against humanity style" ;) On Sat, May 7, 2016 at 12:53 AM, Evan Koblentz via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
or source of questions?
There's the game someone else mentioned, and I have a copy of "The Official Computer Bowl Trivia Book".
Pulled the book off its shelf. Turns out the questions are categorized. We could play Jeopardy-style, or Trivial Pursuit style, or make our own style.
On Fri, May 6, 2016 at 11:55 PM, Jeffrey Brace via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
You read my mind. I was just joking with Dan R. about this last night. Do you have a format or source of questions? Who would be the judge?
yea but I said we should still have the Beerfest on the Beach with a bonfire of blown PC's with thermite need somebody on lookout for the EPA.......and DHS :)
participants (10)
-
Adam Michlin -
Anthony Becker -
Ben Greenfield -
Bill Sudbrink -
Dan Roganti -
Dean Notarnicola -
Douglas Crawford -
Evan Koblentz -
Herb Johnson -
Jeffrey Brace