Hi friends, I am building my first PDP-11. It is a 11/23+ It is a nice set up with 4 RL02's lots of boards, two half-height racks, spares, you name it. I would really like to get a real-to-real 9-track tape drive, the manual loading kind. I see many autoloading types but they just don't have the panache of what I used to use in the 80's and 90's at my places of work. I have been watching on ebay for a while and those few that come up seem expensive. I did locate these (not cheap but cheaper than others). https://www.ebay.com/itm/192745726868 and https://www.ebay.com/itm/264099860161 The first one says "wiltec" but I am guessing that wiltec was just the reseller. It looks very similar (if not identical) to the second one which is listed as a fujitsu M2444AC. For some reason the "wiltec" one is cheaper. It seems to have some nice connectors on the back. The fujitsu is more expensive, has rack mounting hardware (a plus) but no back connectors. It isn't obvious how to connect this to something. Also shipping for some reason, is $100 more. I found a manual to this on bitsavers (thank you to whomever did this). It says it the fujitsu has 3 modes of operation. MODE A: CDC 9218S COMPATIBLE MODE MODE B: CIPHER F880 COMPATIBLE MODE MODE C: PERTEC FSlOOO SERIES COMPATIBLE Can they be made to interface with a PDP-11 Qbus system? Anyone have any opinions on these? I should also ask if anyone has an open-real tape drive they would like to part with (preferably known working) let me know. I am in NY, willing to drive a few hours or pay for shipping. Your thoughts are appreciated. 73 Eugene W2HX
On 12/26/18 9:04 PM, W2HX via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
I am building my first PDP-11. It is a 11/23+ It is a nice set up with 4 RL02's lots of boards, two half-height racks, spares, you name it.
Very nice! Congrats!
I would really like to get a real-to-real 9-track tape drive, the manual loading kind. I see many autoloading types but they just don't have the panache of what I used to use in the 80's and 90's at my places of work.
I have been watching on ebay for a while and those few that come up seem expensive. I did locate these (not cheap but cheaper than others). https://www.ebay.com/itm/192745726868 and https://www.ebay.com/itm/264099860161
The first one says "wiltec" but I am guessing that wiltec was just the reseller. It looks very similar (if not identical) to the second one which is listed as a fujitsu M2444AC.
They are Fujitsu M2444ACs. These are some of the finest 9-track tape drives ever built.
For some reason the "wiltec" one is cheaper. It seems to have some nice connectors on the back. The fujitsu is more expensive, has rack mounting hardware (a plus) but no back connectors. It isn't obvious how to connect this to something. Also shipping for some reason, is $100 more.
The connectors on the other one are a DB25 and a DC37. These are made for connection to a Sun VME tape controller like the Xylogics 472 in a Sun 9U VME carrier. It would probably be quite a pain to use those cables with whatever controller you have for Qbus. In short, the one with the D-shell connectors on the back is an aftermarket add-on, while the one that appears to be missing its back cover is more "standard". (I think Wiltec sold rebadged Sun systems into ATE or telephony-related systems.) These drives implement the Pertec 2-connector "formatted" interface, which is carried on two 50-conductor ribbon cables. That's what any controller you'd get for Qbus will have. A bigger problem will be the power cable. They use uncommon connectors (I've forgotten who made them) and are not easy to find. Of course you can just replace the connector, but that's a bit of a hassle. I see one of the drives you mentioned above has the power cable. I see the other one comes with its rack rails. That's pretty important, as these are very heavy drives.
I found a manual to this on bitsavers (thank you to whomever did this). It says it the fujitsu has 3 modes of operation. MODE A: CDC 9218S COMPATIBLE MODE MODE B: CIPHER F880 COMPATIBLE MODE MODE C: PERTEC FSlOOO SERIES COMPATIBLE
Can they be made to interface with a PDP-11 Qbus system? Anyone have any opinions on these?
Yes, I recommend an Emulex QT13, that's about the most flexible tape controller for Qbus. I've not used one with an M2444AC, but I see no reason why it shouldn't work. Good luck. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
Thanks for the advice, Dave.
The connectors on the other one are a DB25 and a DC37. These are made for connection to a Sun VME tape controller like the Xylogics 472 in a Sun 9U VME carrier. It would probably be quite a pain to use those cables with whatever controller you have for Qbus. In short, the one with the D-shell connectors on the back is an aftermarket add-on, while the one that appears to be missing its back cover is more "standard".
Do I understand correctly, your advice then would be to focus on the fujitsu branded machine because the connectors are more standard and the rack mounting is preferable? I will investigate the emulex QT13, it sounds like a good option. One more request if anyone has a tape machine they would like to part with. Should be better than shipping something across the country. Thanks, Dave. Eugene W2HX ________________________________________ From: vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic-bounces@lists.vcfed.org> on behalf of Dave McGuire via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2018 1:51 AM To: W2HX via vcf-midatlantic Cc: Dave McGuire Subject: Re: [vcf-midatlantic] WTD: PDP-11 tape drive? On 12/26/18 9:04 PM, W2HX via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
I am building my first PDP-11. It is a 11/23+ It is a nice set up with 4 RL02's lots of boards, two half-height racks, spares, you name it.
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On 12/27/18 12:06 PM, W2HX wrote:
The connectors on the other one are a DB25 and a DC37. These are made for connection to a Sun VME tape controller like the Xylogics 472 in a Sun 9U VME carrier. It would probably be quite a pain to use those cables with whatever controller you have for Qbus. In short, the one with the D-shell connectors on the back is an aftermarket add-on, while the one that appears to be missing its back cover is more "standard".
Do I understand correctly, your advice then would be to focus on the fujitsu branded machine because the connectors are more standard and the rack mounting is preferable?
Well, sorta. :) The one with the D-shell connectors on the back is the same, it just has that extra covers with the connectors and their cables which go to the two 50-pin IDC connectors. You can just take that off and get to the standard Pertec connectors very easily. So really, either one would be good, just that one has the power cable and the other has the rack rails...choose your battle. :-)
I will investigate the emulex QT13, it sounds like a good option.
The manual is on Bitsavers. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
Hi friends, back in December, I floated the idea of acquiring a 9-track reel-to-reel tape drive for a PDP-11/23 I am putting together. Well, I bit the bullet and purchased this one: https://www.ebay.com/itm/153390699884 I paid $150 for it and a lot more than that for shipping to the US. They agreed to send along a power cable from a similar item they had listed elsewhere. As they were packing it up they contacted me with pictures of the packing job. They said they were very surprised to discover that these tape drives were actually new in box. And that they must have used a really shabby one when they took the picture long ago. So there you have it. I received a brand new unit. Here are some pictures as they packed it: http://w2hx.com/x/VintageComp/Fujitsu-2444AC/New-In-Box/ And while its great to get a new one (very happy) there are some downsides to this deal. First, it has the DB connectors on the back instead of the IDC (or whatever) is normally used for Qbus cards. Second, it does not have the rack mounting hardware that can be seen at the base of the tape unit pictured in the auction. I'll have to review the emails that came in in response to my inquiry in December, but I think I can remove the rear plate and get access directly to the boards and bypass these DB connectors. Of course this means I will probably also have to find the right cables. Not sure how that will go. Thanks for the encouragement you guys gave me to move forward. I will say, it is quite heavy. It will be quite the task to move it up to the attic where I have my DEC stuff. Now to get a) a set of cables and b) a QT13 (someone suggested I get this). 73 Eugene W2HX -----Original Message----- From: vcf-midatlantic [mailto:vcf-midatlantic-bounces@lists.vcfed.org] On Behalf Of W2HX via vcf-midatlantic Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2018 9:04 PM To: vcf-midatlantic Cc: W2HX Subject: [vcf-midatlantic] WTD: PDP-11 tape drive? Hi friends, I am building my first PDP-11. It is a 11/23+ It is a nice set up with 4 RL02's lots of boards, two half-height racks, spares, you name it. I would really like to get a real-to-real 9-track tape drive, the manual loading kind. I see many autoloading types but they just don't have the panache of what I used to use in the 80's and 90's at my places of work. I have been watching on ebay for a while and those few that come up seem expensive. I did locate these (not cheap but cheaper than others). https://www.ebay.com/itm/192745726868 and https://www.ebay.com/itm/264099860161 The first one says "wiltec" but I am guessing that wiltec was just the reseller. It looks very similar (if not identical) to the second one which is listed as a fujitsu M2444AC. For some reason the "wiltec" one is cheaper. It seems to have some nice connectors on the back. The fujitsu is more expensive, has rack mounting hardware (a plus) but no back connectors. It isn't obvious how to connect this to something. Also shipping for some reason, is $100 more. I found a manual to this on bitsavers (thank you to whomever did this). It says it the fujitsu has 3 modes of operation. MODE A: CDC 9218S COMPATIBLE MODE MODE B: CIPHER F880 COMPATIBLE MODE MODE C: PERTEC FSlOOO SERIES COMPATIBLE Can they be made to interface with a PDP-11 Qbus system? Anyone have any opinions on these? I should also ask if anyone has an open-real tape drive they would like to part with (preferably known working) let me know. I am in NY, willing to drive a few hours or pay for shipping. Your thoughts are appreciated. 73 Eugene W2HX
Just a correction. The shipping was from California to New York. Not from outside the US to the US. Here are pictures as it arrived (perfect condition, delivered on a pallet) http://w2hx.com/x/VintageComp/Fujitsu-2444AC/ Note the shot with the rear cover off. I do worry about getting the right cables for this. Cable would need to go from this to a QT13 (or others?) Any suggestions appreciated. 73 Eugene W2HX -----Original Message----- From: vcf-midatlantic [mailto:vcf-midatlantic-bounces@lists.vcfed.org] On Behalf Of W2HX via vcf-midatlantic Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2019 10:57 PM To: vcf-midatlantic Cc: W2HX Subject: Re: [vcf-midatlantic] WTD: PDP-11 tape drive? Hi friends, back in December, I floated the idea of acquiring a 9-track reel-to-reel tape drive for a PDP-11/23 I am putting together. Well, I bit the bullet and purchased this one: https://www.ebay.com/itm/153390699884 I paid $150 for it and a lot more than that for shipping to the US. They agreed to send along a power cable from a similar item they had listed elsewhere. As they were packing it up they contacted me with pictures of the packing job. They said they were very surprised to discover that these tape drives were actually new in box. And that they must have used a really shabby one when they took the picture long ago. So there you have it. I received a brand new unit. Here are some pictures as they packed it: http://w2hx.com/x/VintageComp/Fujitsu-2444AC/New-In-Box/ And while its great to get a new one (very happy) there are some downsides to this deal. First, it has the DB connectors on the back instead of the IDC (or whatever) is normally used for Qbus cards. Second, it does not have the rack mounting hardware that can be seen at the base of the tape unit pictured in the auction. I'll have to review the emails that came in in response to my inquiry in December, but I think I can remove the rear plate and get access directly to the boards and bypass these DB connectors. Of course this means I will probably also have to find the right cables. Not sure how that will go. Thanks for the encouragement you guys gave me to move forward. I will say, it is quite heavy. It will be quite the task to move it up to the attic where I have my DEC stuff. Now to get a) a set of cables and b) a QT13 (someone suggested I get this). 73 Eugene W2HX -----Original Message----- From: vcf-midatlantic [mailto:vcf-midatlantic-bounces@lists.vcfed.org] On Behalf Of W2HX via vcf-midatlantic Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2018 9:04 PM To: vcf-midatlantic Cc: W2HX Subject: [vcf-midatlantic] WTD: PDP-11 tape drive? Hi friends, I am building my first PDP-11. It is a 11/23+ It is a nice set up with 4 RL02's lots of boards, two half-height racks, spares, you name it. I would really like to get a real-to-real 9-track tape drive, the manual loading kind. I see many autoloading types but they just don't have the panache of what I used to use in the 80's and 90's at my places of work. I have been watching on ebay for a while and those few that come up seem expensive. I did locate these (not cheap but cheaper than others). https://www.ebay.com/itm/192745726868 and https://www.ebay.com/itm/264099860161 The first one says "wiltec" but I am guessing that wiltec was just the reseller. It looks very similar (if not identical) to the second one which is listed as a fujitsu M2444AC. For some reason the "wiltec" one is cheaper. It seems to have some nice connectors on the back. The fujitsu is more expensive, has rack mounting hardware (a plus) but no back connectors. It isn't obvious how to connect this to something. Also shipping for some reason, is $100 more. I found a manual to this on bitsavers (thank you to whomever did this). It says it the fujitsu has 3 modes of operation. MODE A: CDC 9218S COMPATIBLE MODE MODE B: CIPHER F880 COMPATIBLE MODE MODE C: PERTEC FSlOOO SERIES COMPATIBLE Can they be made to interface with a PDP-11 Qbus system? Anyone have any opinions on these? I should also ask if anyone has an open-real tape drive they would like to part with (preferably known working) let me know. I am in NY, willing to drive a few hours or pay for shipping. Your thoughts are appreciated. 73 Eugene W2HX
On 3/6/19 10:57 PM, W2HX via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
Hi friends, back in December, I floated the idea of acquiring a 9-track reel-to-reel tape drive for a PDP-11/23 I am putting together. Well, I bit the bullet and purchased this one: https://www.ebay.com/itm/153390699884
I paid $150 for it and a lot more than that for shipping to the US. They agreed to send along a power cable from a similar item they had listed elsewhere.
As they were packing it up they contacted me with pictures of the packing job. They said they were very surprised to discover that these tape drives were actually new in box. And that they must have used a really shabby one when they took the picture long ago. So there you have it. I received a brand new unit. Here are some pictures as they packed it:
http://w2hx.com/x/VintageComp/Fujitsu-2444AC/New-In-Box/
And while its great to get a new one (very happy) there are some downsides to this deal. First, it has the DB connectors on the back instead of the IDC (or whatever) is normally used for Qbus cards. Second, it does not have the rack mounting hardware that can be seen at the base of the tape unit pictured in the auction.
I'll have to review the emails that came in in response to my inquiry in December, but I think I can remove the rear plate and get access directly to the boards and bypass these DB connectors. Of course this means I will probably also have to find the right cables. Not sure how that will go.
Thanks for the encouragement you guys gave me to move forward. I will say, it is quite heavy. It will be quite the task to move it up to the attic where I have my DEC stuff.
Now to get a) a set of cables and b) a QT13 (someone suggested I get this).
Wow, I can't even imagine getting an M2444AC into an attic. I've moved a few of them. They're every bit of 250lbs. But congrats on a great score. Sucks about the lack of rack rails, as they're pretty specific to this drive. But don't worry about the "wrong" connectors...they're not really wrong, there are just additional ones installed. Just remove them and you'll be fine. The "right" connectors for the Pertec 2-connector formatted tape interface are right there...take off that partial back cover with the DB25/DC37 connectors on it. Each DB25/DC37 connector pair should connect to a single ribbon cable, which goes to a 50-pin IDC connector that's plugged into the back of the drive. Unplug those, and there's your Pertec interface. I'm pretty sure the technical manual for this drive is up on Bitsavers. If you don't see it there, let me know, I have a paper copy that I can either get into the LSSM's scanning queue, or just let you borrow it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
Thanks, Dave.
Just remove them and you'll be fine. The "right" connectors for the Pertec 2-connector formatted tape interface are right there...take off that partial back cover with the DB25/DC37 connectors on it. Each DB25/DC37 connector pair should connect to a single ribbon cable, which goes to a 50-pin IDC connector that's plugged into the back of the drive. Unplug those, and there's your Pertec interface.
Yes I did as you suggested. and you are right. Here is the rear of the unit with the back panel removed: http://w2hx.com/x/VintageComp/Fujitsu-2444AC/0306192310.jpg I see two 50 pin headers. I will have to check the docs for the QT13 (which I don't yet have) and I guess it has two 50 pin headers as well? Where does one find 50 foot ribbon cables with idc headers and what length should the be (or what would be too long)? I'll review the docs today and maybe it will have some answers here.
I'm pretty sure the technical manual for this drive is up on Bitsavers. If you don't see it there, let me know, I have a paper copy that I can either get into the LSSM's scanning queue, or just let you borrow it.
Thanks for the offer, someone has pointed me to the file on bitsavers so I should be good to go there.
On 3/7/19 7:07 AM, W2HX wrote:
Thanks, Dave.
You're welcome.
Just remove them and you'll be fine. The "right" connectors for the Pertec 2-connector formatted tape interface are right there...take off that partial back cover with the DB25/DC37 connectors on it. Each DB25/DC37 connector pair should connect to a single ribbon cable, which goes to a 50-pin IDC connector that's plugged into the back of the drive. Unplug those, and there's your Pertec interface.
Yes I did as you suggested. and you are right. Here is the rear of the unit with the back panel removed:
Yup, I've seen a few of those. :-) (memories, memories!) I've always loved the M2444AC drives, and most of the ones I've been exposed to have been on Sun systems, in the good old days.
I see two 50 pin headers. I will have to check the docs for the QT13 (which I don't yet have) and I guess it has two 50 pin headers as well? Where does one find 50 foot ribbon cables with idc headers and what length should the be (or what would be too long)? I'll review the docs today and maybe it will have some answers here.
The QT13 has two 50-pin IDC connectors just like the drive. The maximum cable length is 25 feet. Those cables are used for all sorts of stuff; they shouldn't be hard to find. I just make them when I need them; ribbon cable and connectors are readily available. There's nothing particularly special about these cables. If you anticipate communication on the HF bands while running your PDP-11, you might consider shielding the cable, though (almost) every other line on those ribbon cables is grounded so the EMI isn't as bad as it could be.
I'm pretty sure the technical manual for this drive is up on Bitsavers. If you don't see it there, let me know, I have a paper copy that I can either get into the LSSM's scanning queue, or just let you borrow it.
Thanks for the offer, someone has pointed me to the file on bitsavers so I should be good to go there.
Perfect! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
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