One major difference between the PC and 3DP is the latter will require substantial materials advancements to make it usefully mainstream and there doesn't seem to be a Moore's law driving that.
That statement, hints at something important. I'm tired of every techie/consumer/science advancement in the last few decades, being compared to the personal computing revolution and to "Moore's Law". Digital technology - almost ALL of it - has advanced in doing THE SAME THING: representing a one or zero with smaller physical hardware. Below the microscopic, it's now below WAVELENGTHS OF LIGHT. OK? Re-read those statements. That's the corollary to Moore's Law. Now: will a 3D printer "advance", by printing pea-sized beer-can openers? Is a 3D printed car a revolution - if it's Hot Wheels sized? So, 3D printing + Moore's Law = zero. Detailed discussion of 3D printing is, as Evan noted, off-topic. But as an engineer, I see that 3D printers have to do more than print plastic forks to be useful to most consumers, and to many techs. But to handle more robust materials, you need more robust tools. A hot tip and a gear to extrude plastic noodles won't get you there. Sorry to those disappointed, but as I said, expectations are too high, the suggested comparison fails. But we vintage computerists, are in the best position, to deny the premise that "3D printing will be the next revolution, like personal computers". We (some of us) know WHY personal computing (and embedded computing) were revolutionary. From an engineering view, 3D printing will be at best, *evolutionary*, like many other advances in technology and materials and processes. Herb Johnson BSEE 1976 -- Herbert R. Johnson, New Jersey in the USA http://www.retrotechnology.com OR .net preserve, recover, restore 1970's computing email: hjohnson AT retrotechnology DOT com or try later herbjohnson AT retrotechnology DOT info
No one is saying that it will be as big as the PC revolution eventually became (there's likely no Internet/WWW equivalent applicable here), but there are parallels in how the personal side of the technology is advancing. I also don't like to limit the idea to just 3D printing. It's more "personal manufacturing." This involves multiple materials and multiple types of technology (CNC, laser, 3D scanning, etc.). Comparisons to how personal computing evolved is a useful shorthand and we're still in the early, more experimental stage of the process. ======================================================== Bill Loguidice, Managing Director; Armchair Arcade, Inc. <http://www.armchairarcade.com> ======================================================== Authored Books <http://www.amazon.com/Bill-Loguidice/e/B001U7W3YS/ref=ntt_dp_epwbk_1> and Film <http://www.armchairarcade.com/film>; About me and other ways to get in touch <http://about.me/billloguidice> ======================================================== On Sat, Mar 3, 2018 at 11:51 AM, Herb Johnson via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
One major difference between the PC and 3DP is the latter will require
substantial materials advancements to make it usefully mainstream and there doesn't seem to be a Moore's law driving that.
That statement, hints at something important. I'm tired of every techie/consumer/science advancement in the last few decades, being compared to the personal computing revolution and to "Moore's Law".
Digital technology - almost ALL of it - has advanced in doing THE SAME THING: representing a one or zero with smaller physical hardware. Below the microscopic, it's now below WAVELENGTHS OF LIGHT. OK? Re-read those statements. That's the corollary to Moore's Law.
Now: will a 3D printer "advance", by printing pea-sized beer-can openers? Is a 3D printed car a revolution - if it's Hot Wheels sized?
So, 3D printing + Moore's Law = zero.
Detailed discussion of 3D printing is, as Evan noted, off-topic. But as an engineer, I see that 3D printers have to do more than print plastic forks to be useful to most consumers, and to many techs. But to handle more robust materials, you need more robust tools. A hot tip and a gear to extrude plastic noodles won't get you there. Sorry to those disappointed, but as I said, expectations are too high, the suggested comparison fails.
But we vintage computerists, are in the best position, to deny the premise that "3D printing will be the next revolution, like personal computers". We (some of us) know WHY personal computing (and embedded computing) were revolutionary. From an engineering view, 3D printing will be at best, *evolutionary*, like many other advances in technology and materials and processes.
Herb Johnson BSEE 1976
-- Herbert R. Johnson, New Jersey in the USA http://www.retrotechnology.com OR .net preserve, recover, restore 1970's computing email: hjohnson AT retrotechnology DOT com or try later herbjohnson AT retrotechnology DOT info
I think there's one very important distinction that should be mentioned here. As it's described in many articled, the 3D printing industry was started in the late 1980s. But the big reason why personal 3D printing has become popular and cheaper in the past decade is mostly due to a couple hundred FDM, SLA patents expiring since Y2K. The 3D printing industry, just like most industries, are very defensive of their intellectual property. Naturally so because it means profits for their business. In essence, the personal/home 3D printer market is working with 25+ yr old technology. Now If you want to compare that to the microcomputer revolution of the 70s,80s, this is tantamount to having many of the computer companies, such as Intel, Motorola, Zilog, etc. taking out patents on not just their VLSI design, but also the schematics found in their databooks we all needed to wire up each of their microprocessors. This is what basically happened with the mainframe computers since the 1950s. Competition was fierce so every measure was used to protect their investment. Thus creating a market where only the industry leaders could afford to buy or pay for licensing fees to use this new hardware. eg 3D Printing pre:2000. As a result, small companies like MITS, Apple, etc could have been prohibited from developing the hobby and consumer market from starting due to expensive licensing fees. Resulting in the same stagnation of technology as with the 3D printing market. Unless these patents expired, we could have been still working only with Z80 home computers in the 1990s while the industry had the more powerful Pentiums, PowerPCs, etc. I think it was only Commodore who had the business foresight to buy MOS technology for the 6502. But the reverse is what actually happened in the 70s, 80s. Those schematics published in the various databooks from these companies which we needed to wire up these brand new microprocessors were essentially the 'open-source' hardware that spawned the hobby/computer market at the vary same time the new technology was available -- not 25yrs later. So even though the 3D printing market, both in the industry and consumer, has made great strides. It is still no comparison to the microcomputer revolution.
Comparisons to how personal computing evolved is a useful shorthand and we're still in the early, more experimental stage of the process.
And I say it's *not* useful shorthand, because the analogy between the two, breaks down at fundamental levels. I think the analogy creates false expectations. That's happened a number of times over the decades, with almost any emerging technology that was "sold" by making that comparision.
But the big reason why personal 3D printing has become popular and cheaper in the past decade is mostly due to a couple hundred FDM, SLA patents expiring since Y2K.
[Imagine if] Intel, Motorola, Zilog, etc. taking out patents on not just their VLSI design, but also the schematics found in their databooks...
Dan makes a good point. The semiconductor companies *encouraged* individual and small-company use of their products - namely microprocessor *memory and logic*, not some computer design. The microprocessors and those schematics were the "razors", the RAM and TTL chips were "the blades" (look up Gillette razors). The microcomputer makers, *had* to make their architectures "open" too, so the early buyers could figure out what to do with these new computers. They were sold with no software, and little hardware - you had to buy more blades - I mean hardware - to get something DONE with these old computers. But that also permitted competitors to make plug-compatible boards and products - which is OK as it sold more computers (sometimes). There was in vintage computing, a tug-of-war between "open" and "closed" architectures. Now *these are* useful vintage-computing references, in my opinion! And it's "vintage", because modern 21-century computing isn't very "open" in the same way. The idea of making your own computer interface cards today, is about like making your own pots and pans, or making your own car parts. It took technologies like Arduino, to make USB devices a "hacker" can hook up to a PeeCee today. Ditto, RaspPi. IN the 90's, the interface was ISA, or serial, or parallel - simpler, using simpler processors (8051's, PICs in BASIC). So there's lessons to learn from vintage computing history - but you gotta choose the right lessons. Herb Johnson -- Herbert R. Johnson, New Jersey in the USA http://www.retrotechnology.com OR .net
I agree with BIll. I understand Herb's point but just want to comment that even if the home printers don't evolve above printing plastic (which I don't believe will be the case), they can already have a decent impact on society. If it becomes commonplace and intuitive enough for the average Joe to use, a lot of things that are bought retail would no longer need to be bought. There is a lot of plastic stuff out there that people use every day beyond eating utensils. Replacement parts, toys, gifts, all small things in a sense, but still quite neat to be able to make yourself. I just bought a home printer for myself in December. It was a retail i3 clone marketed by Monoprice, and cost 200 bucks. A relatively small amount of money, with tons of potential. The impact on the industrial side will be a bigger wave when it comes to pass, and the more sophisticated the industrial printers get, the more sophisticated the home ones will get. It doesn't even need to get to a point where every Average Joe knows how to use them. Enough people having more knowledge on small scale\personal manufacturing enables even more people who have an idea or vision but lacks the equipment\skills to get something prototyped quicker and cheaper than in the past. I guess only time will tell. Matt On Sat, Mar 3, 2018 at 11:51 AM, Herb Johnson via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
One major difference between the PC and 3DP is the latter will require
substantial materials advancements to make it usefully mainstream and there doesn't seem to be a Moore's law driving that.
That statement, hints at something important. I'm tired of every techie/consumer/science advancement in the last few decades, being compared to the personal computing revolution and to "Moore's Law".
Digital technology - almost ALL of it - has advanced in doing THE SAME THING: representing a one or zero with smaller physical hardware. Below the microscopic, it's now below WAVELENGTHS OF LIGHT. OK? Re-read those statements. That's the corollary to Moore's Law.
Now: will a 3D printer "advance", by printing pea-sized beer-can openers? Is a 3D printed car a revolution - if it's Hot Wheels sized?
So, 3D printing + Moore's Law = zero.
Detailed discussion of 3D printing is, as Evan noted, off-topic. But as an engineer, I see that 3D printers have to do more than print plastic forks to be useful to most consumers, and to many techs. But to handle more robust materials, you need more robust tools. A hot tip and a gear to extrude plastic noodles won't get you there. Sorry to those disappointed, but as I said, expectations are too high, the suggested comparison fails.
But we vintage computerists, are in the best position, to deny the premise that "3D printing will be the next revolution, like personal computers". We (some of us) know WHY personal computing (and embedded computing) were revolutionary. From an engineering view, 3D printing will be at best, *evolutionary*, like many other advances in technology and materials and processes.
Herb Johnson BSEE 1976
-- Herbert R. Johnson, New Jersey in the USA http://www.retrotechnology.com OR .net preserve, recover, restore 1970's computing email: hjohnson AT retrotechnology DOT com or try later herbjohnson AT retrotechnology DOT info
I'm sorry I'm the villain in this discussion. This will be my last reply, it's off topic and I'm repeating myself. Really, my only goal is to say "3D printing futures will not be "like" the history of personal computing was". OK? I'm no 3D printer expert otherwise. Personal computers got better/cheaper/faster because CHIPS got smaller/cheaper/faster. Computer size was evolutionary: box to laptop to smartphone took decades. Whereas, costs of 3D printers go down with production *at the same quality* - no shrinkage allowed. Cheep 3D printers don't produce the same quality of parts as expensive ones, or they print slower, or they use proprietary supplies or fewer kinds of supplies. I'll say this much - 3D printers may be "like" inkjet or laser/toner printers, in terms of history of production and performance and use. The catch - proprietary printers use proprietary ink-carts or toner-carts, those pay for those cheep printers.
the more sophisticated the industrial printers get, the more sophisticated the home ones will get
Oh yeah? And what pays for that "sophistication?" better print heads or lasers cost more. good lead screws, better bearings cost more than threaded rod. More mechanical features ADD to costs. These are not computer-bits of intellectual property that cost zero in production. These are physical tangible items that you can't "shrink" like shrinking chip-logic. Compare the physical features of your $200 printer, to a $1000- $3000 3D printer. One more comment. There's another commonality between 3D printers and early personal computing. "A relatively small amount of money, with tons of potential." That sold computers in the past, when it was real work to make them useful (and they cost more). Today, computer use is standardized, software functions are standardized, expectations are set. You buy for use, for job and personal life. That's not true for 3D printers - printing a part is like baking a cake; most people just go to Dunkin' Donuts. Homework question: describe the world where ordinary people just "print" physical items for use instead of ordering/buying them. If you evoke "instant 3D printing", explain the physics of spraying PLA plastic at speed. Herb Johnson cursed to be an engineer On 3/5/2018 10:05 AM, Matt Reynolds wrote:
I agree with BIll.
I understand Herb's point but just want to comment that even if the home printers don't evolve above printing plastic (which I don't believe will be the case), they can already have a decent impact on society. If it becomes commonplace and intuitive enough for the average Joe to use, a lot of things that are bought retail would no longer need to be bought. There is a lot of plastic stuff out there that people use every day beyond eating utensils. Replacement parts, toys, gifts, all small things in a sense, but still quite neat to be able to make yourself. I just bought a home printer for myself in December. It was a retail i3 clone marketed by Monoprice, and cost 200 bucks. A relatively small amount of money, with tons of potential.
The impact on the industrial side will be a bigger wave when it comes to pass, and the more sophisticated the industrial printers get, the more sophisticated the home ones will get. It doesn't even need to get to a point where every Average Joe knows how to use them. Enough people having more knowledge on small scale\personal manufacturing enables even more people who have an idea or vision but lacks the equipment\skills to get something prototyped quicker and cheaper than in the past.
I guess only time will tell.
Matt -- Herbert R. Johnson, New Jersey in the USA http://www.retrotechnology.com OR .net preserve, recover, restore 1970's computing email: hjohnson AT retrotechnology DOT com or try later herbjohnson AT retrotechnology DOT info
That "Homework question" reminds me a bit of the "Why do you need a personal computer?" question so popular in the late 70s through mid-80s. If we can only think of 3D printing as printing plastic/plastic composite materials at a relatively slow speed (and there are other types of 3D printing beyond the slower FDM type), then I think it's something of a failure of imagination. We couldn't really envision where personal computing was going to end up just a few decades after truly personal computers started to appear, and I don't think we can really envision where personal manufacturing is going to end up just a few decades from now. While I don't think we'll quite be at the Star Trek replicator stage by then, we already have the beginnings of fairly usable multi-material printing, including with food. I just think we can't limit ourselves to what's out there now. Anyway, this concept of personal manufacturing may indeed fizzle out much like the concept of personal robotics did by the late-80's, but I tend to think there's something more there. ======================================================== Bill Loguidice, Managing Director; Armchair Arcade, Inc. <http://www.armchairarcade.com> ======================================================== Authored Books <http://www.amazon.com/Bill-Loguidice/e/B001U7W3YS/ref=ntt_dp_epwbk_1> and Film <http://www.armchairarcade.com/film>; About me and other ways to get in touch <http://about.me/billloguidice> ======================================================== On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 11:28 AM, Herb Johnson via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
Homework question: describe the world where ordinary people just "print" physical items for use instead of ordering/buying them. If you evoke "instant 3D printing", explain the physics of spraying PLA plastic at speed.
Herb Johnson cursed to be an engineer
On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 11:51 AM, Bill Loguidice via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
That "Homework question" reminds me a bit of the "Why do you need a personal computer?" question so popular in the late 70s through mid-80s. If we can only think of 3D printing as printing plastic/plastic composite materials at a relatively slow speed (and there are other types of 3D printing beyond the slower FDM type), then I think it's something of a failure of imagination. We couldn't really envision where personal computing was going to end up just a few decades after truly personal computers started to appear, and I don't think we can really envision where personal manufacturing is going to end up just a few decades from now. While I don't think we'll quite be at the Star Trek replicator stage by then, we already have the beginnings of fairly usable multi-material printing, including with food. I just think we can't limit ourselves to what's out there now.
Anyway, this concept of personal manufacturing may indeed fizzle out much like the concept of personal robotics did by the late-80's, but I tend to think there's something more there.
I really doubt this will fizzle out. But the fact remains, the industry for 3D printing is light-years ahead of the consumer market. It will remain so for the foreseeable future - all because of patents. The next generation of consumer 3D printers will still be a 'hand-me-down' from the industry technology - but only after the patents expire The computer industry - using microprocessors -- didn't suffer from this. For example, GE is already building jet engines with parts made from 3D printing And Nasa is building rocket engines also from 3d printed parts Mind you, these are not simple metal parts, these have extremely high stress factors and temperature resilience. Now this technology is very expensive naturally, but these industrial 3D printers aren't mass-produced as with microcomputers. The consumer market will always lag. -- _ ____ / \__/ Scotty, We Need More Power !! \_/ _\__ Aye, Cap'n, but we've only got 80 columns !!
As it's off topic I will stop replying as well, but will reply to your points. First and foremost, I don't see you as a villain. You are entitled to your opinion as am I, and am totally fine to agree to disagree. It would be quite a weird world if everybody agreed and thought exactly as I. I realize more features costs more, and wasn't discounting that. I'm sure as en engineer in your career you have seen machines and devices (outside of electronics) that were once expensive and more exclusive that have become cheaper, more prevalent and available. It doesn't matter how or why, whether through counterfeiting, piracy, offshoring, patent expiration, cheaper materials, or open source design philosophy, but it does and has happened. I'm assuming that this trend won't stop. Some 3D printers already have the ability to make their raw materials proprietary. There are some brands that have readers\chips and associated software embedded into the spool to make sure you use what they want you to use. I realize in a techie world\group this would look like something that is easy to defeat, and that's not my point. My point is there is already a parallel to proprietary cartridges. I do not desire to do your homework question. I don't think it's that far fetched to believe that as a technology becomes easier to use and more prevalent that it can change a society, good, bad, or otherwise. I have to assume you've had to have seen it happen many times over in your life. I don't have to know the exact future or details of a new manufacturing process is to make assumptions on what the impact could be to a world where things can be made from home (or at least in more locations and cheaper). Matt On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 11:28 AM, Herb Johnson via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
I'm sorry I'm the villain in this discussion. This will be my last reply, it's off topic and I'm repeating myself. Really, my only goal is to say "3D printing futures will not be "like" the history of personal computing was". OK? I'm no 3D printer expert otherwise.
Personal computers got better/cheaper/faster because CHIPS got smaller/cheaper/faster. Computer size was evolutionary: box to laptop to smartphone took decades. Whereas, costs of 3D printers go down with production *at the same quality* - no shrinkage allowed. Cheep 3D printers don't produce the same quality of parts as expensive ones, or they print slower, or they use proprietary supplies or fewer kinds of supplies.
I'll say this much - 3D printers may be "like" inkjet or laser/toner printers, in terms of history of production and performance and use. The catch - proprietary printers use proprietary ink-carts or toner-carts, those pay for those cheep printers.
the more sophisticated the industrial printers get, the more
sophisticated the home ones will get
Oh yeah? And what pays for that "sophistication?" better print heads or lasers cost more. good lead screws, better bearings cost more than threaded rod. More mechanical features ADD to costs. These are not computer-bits of intellectual property that cost zero in production. These are physical tangible items that you can't "shrink" like shrinking chip-logic. Compare the physical features of your $200 printer, to a $1000- $3000 3D printer.
One more comment. There's another commonality between 3D printers and early personal computing. "A relatively small amount of money, with tons of potential." That sold computers in the past, when it was real work to make them useful (and they cost more). Today, computer use is standardized, software functions are standardized, expectations are set. You buy for use, for job and personal life. That's not true for 3D printers - printing a part is like baking a cake; most people just go to Dunkin' Donuts.
Homework question: describe the world where ordinary people just "print" physical items for use instead of ordering/buying them. If you evoke "instant 3D printing", explain the physics of spraying PLA plastic at speed.
Herb Johnson cursed to be an engineer
On 3/5/2018 10:05 AM, Matt Reynolds wrote:
I agree with BIll.
I understand Herb's point but just want to comment that even if the home printers don't evolve above printing plastic (which I don't believe will be the case), they can already have a decent impact on society. If it becomes commonplace and intuitive enough for the average Joe to use, a lot of things that are bought retail would no longer need to be bought. There is a lot of plastic stuff out there that people use every day beyond eating utensils. Replacement parts, toys, gifts, all small things in a sense, but still quite neat to be able to make yourself. I just bought a home printer for myself in December. It was a retail i3 clone marketed by Monoprice, and cost 200 bucks. A relatively small amount of money, with tons of potential.
The impact on the industrial side will be a bigger wave when it comes to pass, and the more sophisticated the industrial printers get, the more sophisticated the home ones will get. It doesn't even need to get to a point where every Average Joe knows how to use them. Enough people having more knowledge on small scale\personal manufacturing enables even more people who have an idea or vision but lacks the equipment\skills to get something prototyped quicker and cheaper than in the past.
I guess only time will tell.
Matt
-- Herbert R. Johnson, New Jersey in the USA http://www.retrotechnology.com OR .net preserve, recover, restore 1970's computing email: hjohnson AT retrotechnology DOT com or try later herbjohnson AT retrotechnology DOT info
On 03/05/2018 11:28 AM, Herb Johnson via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
Homework question: describe the world where ordinary people just "print" physical items for use instead of ordering/buying them. If you evoke "instant 3D printing", explain the physics of spraying PLA plastic at speed.
I see it like Herb sees it. There printers are touchy and take some knowledge to make work (I don't see that changing). You've got to know your materials and watch that there are no drafts and to actually build something on your own you still need drafting (I think I had that class in 1980). Still have the book. I can't see this being built for the home. I do see an industry of people who can build replacement parts. If course this might get the DRM folks in a knot. We really don't build serviceable anymore. It only through creative engineering that we (the makers & the engineers) figure way around the problems. BTW, I watched one of my neighbors kids casting molten metal. Now that is so cool! -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@linuxha.com http://www.linuxha.com/ Main site http://linuxha.blogspot.com/ My HA Blog Author of: Linux Smart Homes For Dummies
the more sophisticated the industrial printers get, the more sophisticated the home ones will get
Oh yeah? And what pays for that "sophistication?" better print heads or lasers cost more. good lead screws, better bearings cost more than threaded rod. More mechanical features ADD to costs. These are not computer-bits of intellectual property that cost zero in production. These are physical tangible items that you can't "shrink" like shrinking chip-logic. Compare the physical features of your $200 printer, to a $1000- $3000 3D printer.
Nit picking small parts of herbs response since others already addressed the rest, mass production will help pay for that sophistication. Even parts that have not been "shrunk" in size can come down in cost when production runs are increased. Yes, supply chain issues and demand issues can reverse that if demand out strips supply etc, but larger production runs are just one of several answers to that question. The rest are as well known as that one answer. I don't see you as a "villain" either Herb. I love your well reasoned responses to this and many other topics that come up, off topic or not! It's that give and take and back and forth and opposite/competing points of view that make this discussion list one of my favorites!!! Your passion for discussion is always enjoyed from my perspective and I've learned a great deal sitting back and watching or sometimes participating in those various discussions. Tony
I don’t think of anyone here as a villain, while it is off the topic of vintage computers, it’s a technology that had touched many different parts of society. And as an emerging “consumer” technology, I felt it was a good topic for discussion. Just as everyone here has their own opinions of various vintage systems (Apple vs Commodore vs Atari vs Z80 machines, and so on). People are entitled to their opinions. It doesn’t make someone right or wrong, a good or bad guy. On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 12:25 PM Tony Bogan via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
the more sophisticated the industrial printers get, the more sophisticated the home ones will get
Oh yeah? And what pays for that "sophistication?" better print heads or lasers cost more. good lead screws, better bearings cost more than threaded rod. More mechanical features ADD to costs. These are not computer-bits of intellectual property that cost zero in production. These are physical tangible items that you can't "shrink" like shrinking chip-logic. Compare the physical features of your $200 printer, to a $1000- $3000 3D printer.
Nit picking small parts of herbs response since others already addressed the rest, mass production will help pay for that sophistication. Even parts that have not been "shrunk" in size can come down in cost when production runs are increased. Yes, supply chain issues and demand issues can reverse that if demand out strips supply etc, but larger production runs are just one of several answers to that question. The rest are as well known as that one answer.
I don't see you as a "villain" either Herb. I love your well reasoned responses to this and many other topics that come up, off topic or not! It's that give and take and back and forth and opposite/competing points of view that make this discussion list one of my favorites!!! Your passion for discussion is always enjoyed from my perspective and I've learned a great deal sitting back and watching or sometimes participating in those various discussions. Tony
-- Normal Person: Hey, it seems that you know a lot. Geek: To be honest, it's due to all the surfing I do. Normal Person: So you go surfing? Normal Person: But I don't think that has anything to do with knowing a lot... Geek: I think that's wrong on a fundamental level. Normal Person: Huh? Huh? What?
Just wanted to add it's unfortunate we have to end a thread like this because it's OT. I enjoyed reading everyone's thoughts on this topic. I assume if weather is better for future festivus events or other gatherings we can continue the discussion there :) John On Mar 5, 2018 1:35 PM, "Joseph Oprysko via vcf-midatlantic" < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote: I don’t think of anyone here as a villain, while it is off the topic of vintage computers, it’s a technology that had touched many different parts of society. And as an emerging “consumer” technology, I felt it was a good topic for discussion. Just as everyone here has their own opinions of various vintage systems (Apple vs Commodore vs Atari vs Z80 machines, and so on). People are entitled to their opinions. It doesn’t make someone right or wrong, a good or bad guy. On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 12:25 PM Tony Bogan via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
the more sophisticated the industrial printers get, the more sophisticated the home ones will get
Oh yeah? And what pays for that "sophistication?" better print heads or lasers cost more. good lead screws, better bearings cost more than
threaded
rod. More mechanical features ADD to costs. These are not computer-bits of intellectual property that cost zero in production. These are physical tangible items that you can't "shrink" like shrinking chip-logic. Compare the physical features of your $200 printer, to a $1000- $3000 3D printer.
Nit picking small parts of herbs response since others already addressed the rest, mass production will help pay for that sophistication. Even parts that have not been "shrunk" in size can come down in cost when production runs are increased. Yes, supply chain issues and demand issues can reverse that if demand out strips supply etc, but larger production runs are just one of several answers to that question. The rest are as well known as that one answer.
I don't see you as a "villain" either Herb. I love your well reasoned responses to this and many other topics that come up, off topic or not! It's that give and take and back and forth and opposite/competing points of view that make this discussion list one of my favorites!!! Your passion for discussion is always enjoyed from my perspective and I've learned a great deal sitting back and watching or sometimes participating in those various discussions. Tony
-- Normal Person: Hey, it seems that you know a lot. Geek: To be honest, it's due to all the surfing I do. Normal Person: So you go surfing? Normal Person: But I don't think that has anything to do with knowing a lot... Geek: I think that's wrong on a fundamental level. Normal Person: Huh? Huh? What?
On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 8:36 PM, John Heritage via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
Just wanted to add it's unfortunate we have to end a thread like this because it's OT. I enjoyed reading everyone's thoughts on this topic.
Is there is vintage computing / 3D printing guru (or site) who has a library of designs that are useful and cost effective for the hobby? Common things like switches and covers, doors, handles, knobs, etc? That would be a worthy job for VCFed, but I keep giving away good ideas and then they're taken without giving me credit which reduces my incentive to spearhead such a project. b
I'm not aware of one specific to the hobby only but there are "collections" on some of the major sites, examples: https://www.thingiverse.com/ABrugsch/collections/amiga-stuff https://www.thingiverse.com/jartz/collections/amiga These are lists people made and not just an auto search based on tags. I don't know if any sites support collections across sites or if the general big 3d sites allow that. I'm happy to do more research when not sitting here waiting to fall asleep. Email me with some more questions or thoughts and I'll collect some info/answers. On Mar 5, 2018 9:54 PM, "Bill Degnan via vcf-midatlantic" < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 8:36 PM, John Heritage via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
Just wanted to add it's unfortunate we have to end a thread like this because it's OT. I enjoyed reading everyone's thoughts on this topic.
Is there is vintage computing / 3D printing guru (or site) who has a library of designs that are useful and cost effective for the hobby? Common things like switches and covers, doors, handles, knobs, etc? That would be a worthy job for VCFed, but I keep giving away good ideas and then they're taken without giving me credit which reduces my incentive to spearhead such a project. b
I know I’ve found replacement key caps for the Apple, IBM Model M keyboards, replacements for the broken click-out keyboard legs, etc. I suppose that someone could curate a library of 3D printable parts that are directly related to vintage computer systems. Switches, board supports, replacement feet, battery doors/holders, and so on. Possibly if someone wants to do that, likely by contacting thingiverse, it may be possible to make a sub-section that is vintage related, and just add the tags for the various systems. As opposed to re-inventing the wheel by making a new site. On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 5:33 AM John Heritage via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
I'm not aware of one specific to the hobby only but there are "collections" on some of the major sites, examples:
https://www.thingiverse.com/ABrugsch/collections/amiga-stuff
https://www.thingiverse.com/jartz/collections/amiga
These are lists people made and not just an auto search based on tags.
I don't know if any sites support collections across sites or if the general big 3d sites allow that.
I'm happy to do more research when not sitting here waiting to fall asleep. Email me with some more questions or thoughts and I'll collect some info/answers.
On Mar 5, 2018 9:54 PM, "Bill Degnan via vcf-midatlantic" < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 8:36 PM, John Heritage via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
Just wanted to add it's unfortunate we have to end a thread like this because it's OT. I enjoyed reading everyone's thoughts on this topic.
Is there is vintage computing / 3D printing guru (or site) who has a library of designs that are useful and cost effective for the hobby? Common things like switches and covers, doors, handles, knobs, etc? That would be a worthy job for VCFed, but I keep giving away good ideas and then they're taken without giving me credit which reduces my incentive to spearhead such a project. b
-- Normal Person: Hey, it seems that you know a lot. Geek: To be honest, it's due to all the surfing I do. Normal Person: So you go surfing? Normal Person: But I don't think that has anything to do with knowing a lot... Geek: I think that's wrong on a fundamental level. Normal Person: Huh? Huh? What?
After 35yrs I accidentally broke a couple of paddles on my Imsai, both a red and a blue I've found someone on eB@y making them, but the shades weren't right, It was visible from the photo's, and comparing with other Imsai photo's, not just my system, Unless I change all of them which wasn't in my plans, they would be fine if making a replica. And there's now over a hundred different shades of PLA, maybe more now, and maybe now for ABS too But I'm not sure yet if the same Imsai 'baby blue' or 'rosy red' shade is available in PLA So I opted to get a few originals as a replacement for now. Dan
Ouch! How did they break? Wondering if there is a common failure? I’m not sure how the paddles survived on my machine. It was a “barn find”, complete with two mud wasp nests. No mouse $#@! though. eric
On Mar 6, 2018, at 8:13 AM, Dan Roganti via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
After 35yrs I accidentally broke a couple of paddles on my Imsai, both a red and a blue I've found someone on eB@y making them, but the shades weren't right, It was visible from the photo's, and comparing with other Imsai photo's, not just my system, Unless I change all of them which wasn't in my plans, they would be fine if making a replica. And there's now over a hundred different shades of PLA, maybe more now, and maybe now for ABS too But I'm not sure yet if the same Imsai 'baby blue' or 'rosy red' shade is available in PLA So I opted to get a few originals as a replacement for now. Dan
On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 8:16 AM, E.M.F. via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
Ouch! How did they break? Wondering if there is a common failure?
I’m not sure how the paddles survived on my machine. It was a “barn find”, complete with two mud wasp nests. No mouse $#@! though.
eric
no, this was my fault, my peripheral vision was lacking that day and I bumped into them I doubt there's a common failure, these have taken 40yrs worth of thumb/finger toggling And it's been a in safe environment since then, no humidity, no extreme temp as in a warehouse, etc Those extreme conditions can definitely weaken most plastics, so basically no one would be immune. Dan -- _ ____ / \__/ Scotty, We Need More Power !! \_/ _\__ Aye, Cap'n, but we've only got 80 columns !!
There have been several things in the apple II and Mac arenas that have been 3D printed as well. The square power light cap for the II+ keyboard has gone through several iterations to the point where it is fast approaching a true replacement. The most notable item is the eject gear for the Apple 3.5" disk drive that has finally been (dare I say it) "perfected." After several trial and errors with material (I know next to nothing about 3D printing mind you) there are two different people who have made and sold the replacement gear to those of us without 3D printers. The initial runs broke after only a few uses but were quickly replaced with newer batches that so far have held up with repeated use. The gear is a known issue with these drives as they have aged, especially in drives that sat for long periods of time without use. The grease congealed and the drive mechanisms got sticky and the stress of attempting to eject a disk snaps the gear (the original is a plastic gear to begin with). So far the replacements have worked well. Tony
participants (11)
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Bill Degnan -
Bill Loguidice -
Dan Roganti -
E.M.F. -
Evan Koblentz -
Herb Johnson -
John Heritage -
Joseph Oprysko -
Matt Reynolds -
Neil Cherry -
Tony Bogan