Re: [vcf-midatlantic] Sussex hamfest and swapmeets
This is mostly anecdotal, from a fringe, barely-active member, so take it for whatever it is: I got to Hamfests on a regular enough basis, even though I'm not a ham. I've been to some of the bigger ones like Sussex and Dayton and many, many small ones. I think it's very reasonable to say that it's a dying hobby, but is not dead. There's just more to do from a hobby standpoint than ever before, and only so much time in the day, and only so much time on the planet to live your life. There may be more members now, but there are more people on the planet now as well, and part of the boom rush in getting more members was dropping the Morse Code requirements. I'm in a different vintage electronics club and many of them have said that they never bothered to learn, or waited until the code requirement dropped before they took the test. Of course it's evolved, more digital and exotic than it was in the past. Less heavy boatanchors, more things that look more like computer parts than radio parts. More computer related than ever before. I've been to many estate sales of "silent keys" as well. The only people I see buying the heavy ham gear are other hams, which are most of the time within the same age range as the silent key who just passed. Very seldom do I see young guys at those types of sale picking up their first set of gear to get on the air with. The hamfest attendance still seems to me to be in the vast majority men, 50s and above to almost every fest i've been to. Are there younger men, women, kids? Absolutely (I'm not even in my 40s yet). Are they deliberately exclusive? no. There's just not a lot of enticement for anyone else to go to them unless they are already interested in the topic. I go primarily because the trend seems to be for most hams to buy some very expensive new rig that is small, not heavy, and does more, and the vintage stuff, including their test equipment, and quite often computer\consumer electronics, goes to the sale with them alongside their old boatanchor radios. The mentality of "this hamfest is not as big as it used to be" mentality seems to be something I've heard at almost every one I've ever attended, including Dayton, and is something that is brought up without ever mentioning it or asking about it. The toxicity of that mentality and similar companion attitudes in the hobby have been part of the reason I haven't prioritized taking the cert exams. I've never been "talked down to" by elders in any other enthusiast group as often as at hamfests. Asking questions seems to give you a gruff brush-off more often than it should, and more often than I encounter at other swap meets (car parts shows, coin-op shows, antique shows, collectible shows, etc.). It's a really strange phenomenon, because some of my best friends are hams and are on the opposite side of that mentality spectrum. The old fixture of the hobby, an "Elmer" or graybeard-like person there to help teach the others seems to be harder and harder to find at hamfests, because there are so many of the naysayers there polluting it for the Elmers. It doesn't take much to turn people off to a hobby when someone is only mildly curious to begin with. Many times I've thought to myself, why would I bother to get certified to get on the air to talk to grumpy old people talk about how things aren't as good as they used to be and brag about how expensive their radio is? I realize that it is not the only thing that happens, but I've encountered more of the grumps than the Elmers. Back to the original point, I can also see why having a swap meet takes away from an event where you are having exhibits and panels. I've been to other shows that have both at the same time, and I often feel torn between digging through the treasure and watching the panels or events. Maybe you are pondering whether to buy something or not, and while you are thinking about it you go to a panel, and you spend half the panel whether or not you should go buy that thing, or whether it's still there, etc. On the flipside, you have stuff you don't want anymore, you want to get rid of it. It's esoteric and the audience that knows what it is doesn't walk into the flea market everyday, online sales are not always attractive, etc. Seems like the best idea would be to have a separate event that was just a swap meet? Based on the replies already sent back and forth on this topic, there seems to be plenty of demand for one. Regards, Matt nocallletters On Wed, Sep 16, 2020 at 1:07 PM Sentrytv via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
I’d like to say that you guys (Girls) put on a very good Hamfest, it is unfortunate that this year it had to be canceled.
I have been going there probably for the better part of 20 years, selling and buying. All of my friends who are into radio equipment have found some really good deals there.
I must say that you guys have the most diverse Hamfest/swap meet in NJ.
Mike Rosen
Looking forward to going next year.
Sent from: My extremely complicated, hand held electronic device.
On Sep 16, 2020, at 10:14 AM, Kelly Leavitt via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
Not to flog a deceased equine but... Sussex County NJ is home to a great hamfest too.
We have over a thousand buyers through the gates and over 200 sellers. Ann and I usually run the kitchen. We see all kinds of folks.
73 de KE2L
________________________________ From: vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic-bounces@lists.vcfed.org> on behalf of Dave McGuire via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2020 10:33 PM To: W2HX via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> Cc: Dave McGuire <mcguire@neurotica.com> Subject: Re: [vcf-midatlantic] VCF East Swap Meet - Save the Date - Saturday November 7 (Rain: Sunday November 8)
Butler, PA is in the middle of nowhere and generally consists of an odd mix of farmers and meth addicts, but there's one hell of a hamfest there every year. I too thought hamfests had pretty much died, but then I was very happily corrected! I never miss that one.
Of course, every year at the Butler hamfest I run across constipated old men standing around complaining about how ham radio (not hamfests, but ham radio) is dying. Sometimes I'm in a snarky enough mood to interrupt and inform them that it's bigger than it ever has been, but I usually just shake my head and leave them to their bran muffins.
-Dave
On 9/15/20 9:41 AM, W2HX via vcf-midatlantic wrote: I'll pile on 'cause I'm a ham (don't mess with us! Haha).
I frequently attend NEARfest which is a spring and fall hamfest event in the New England area. I don’t know the exact attendance numbers but if I had to guess I would say "a few thousand" when the weather is good. There are more hams licensed with the FCC today than ever before in history. Over 760,000 in the US alone (according to Wikipedia).
And growing! http://www.arrl.org/files/media/News/Ham%20Radio%20Stats%202014.jpg
Worldwide the number is about 3,000,000 (again according to Wikipedia). I wonder how many vintage computer hobbyists exist the world? Maybe we should learn something from the hams.
73 Eugene W2HX
-----Original Message----- From: vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic-bounces@lists.vcfed.org> On Behalf Of Joshua Abraham via vcf-midatlantic Sent: Monday, September 14, 2020 7:47 PM To: vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org Cc: Joshua Abraham <jarvideo@gmail.com> Subject: [vcf-midatlantic] VCF East Swap Meet - Save the Date - Saturday November 7 (Rain: Sunday November 8)
I was right about that, and I was right about hamfests. How many families and kids excitedly go to a hamfest? Swapmeets are incestuous, and that makes communities wither and go extinct.
I couldn't help but weigh in on this. Before making snide remarks such as these it may help to make sure you have actual data to back that up. Hamfests can be rather small and boring but others are MASSIVE coordinated events with large attendance. Most notably, the annual Dayton Hamvention which had an attendance of over 32,000. This event is to hams what VCF is to us vintage computer enthusiasts. The event is hugely successful and they have a full on flea market to go along with it.
Closer to my neck of the woods is the annual Shelby Hamfest, an event that's well more than a few decades old and boasts several thousand in attendance and even offers campground space for the folks they know are traveling far and bringing families along.
Based on these events alone I'd say ham is alive and well and far from extinct.
Personally I think the swapmeet is a fantastic idea and has much potential. -Joshua A
-- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
There's just not a lot of enticement for anyone else to go to them unless they are already interested in the topic.
Yes, exactly. My job was to GROW the hobby and advocate to teach the public about computer history. Having a swap meet at the festivals would have done the opposite. Maybe you'd get a few more hardcore nerds attending, but at the expense of vastly more regular people. Consignment was the best compromise, and it was largely run by people like Kelly who knew how to organize it, and Corey who knew how to handle the $$$. I also added the Friday workshops (Ragooman's idea, R.I.P.) to keep the hardcore audience happy and raise more $$$. It worked pretty well, everyone would agree. Anyone who STILL thinks I should've turned East into a swap meet is stuck in the 20th century and doesn't get the big picture of what we were trying to accomplish.
I’ve enjoyed hearing people’s experiences with various events, it’s been very educational! I’ve learned of several events I either had not heard of or did not know still existed. And while someone made comments about a swap meet at VCF East, and reasons why VCF East didn’t have a swap meet at it, and who was right or wrong for wanting or not wanting a swap meet at VCF East, and all the reasons why a swap meet at VCF East is baaaaaaad, and growing the organization versus it stagnating and withering and dying etc etc, that SPECIFIC part of the discussion (while amusing) is not relevant to the original email that was sent out announcing the Vintage Computer Federation Swap Meet. Why? Because there is not a swap meet happening at VCF East. There is a specific date (dates actually) for VCF East. There are specific dates for monthly workshops. There is now also a specific date for a swap meet. It’s not at VCF east, it’s not part of VCF East, it’s not associated with VCF East, and it’s not even in the same month as VCF East. It’s a completely separate event. That said, it’s great to discuss swap meets again!! (Just trying to not lose focus on the upcoming event that was announced at the start of this discussion) Surprisingly, the VCF Swap Meet is geared towards people who want to go to swap meets. It’s not geared towards the general public who have no knowledge of vintage computers or vague remembrances of computers from their past and want to learn more and experience exhibits and classes and lectures. That’s what VCF East is for. It’s specifically aimed at people who want to go to a vintage computer swap meet, hence the reason it is called the Vintage Computer Federation Swap Meet. Oddly enough, as evidenced by this thread, there are lots of people who used to go to vintage computer/electronics swap meets as well as swap meets for other hobbies/past times. Those are most likely the people a vintage computer swap meet would be targeting. In all likelihood (but don’t hold me to it) that’s the reason we announced the event on the Vintage Computer Federation e-mail list. One of many ways to grow an organization is to increase the number of outreach projects to both the general Public AND the membership and other people in our specific hobby. Every event does not need to be populated by solely new attendees in order to grow the organization. Every event does not need to be aimed at the broadest audience possible. Some things are, by design, meant to be more narrowly focused than a major yearly festival. Another thing we’ve all seen on this list are people mentioning they’ve infrequently (or never) replied to/emailed this list. Some in this very thread as a matter of fact. As with all groups, some people are more involved, some less. One of the many ways to grow an organization is to try and engage as many existing members as possible while also growing that membership (attendance at events, interest in the hobby, all those things fall under “membership” in this context) and getting people who are moderately involved to become more involved. Having a swap meet is but one more way to engage people interested in vintage computers and give them yet another opportunity to meet with others, trade/purchase items with/from each other, and enjoy the hobby so many of us love so dearly. It also helps raise funds for the organization, yet another type of growth that is needed for VCF to thrive and expand. So, feel free to attend our outdoor swap meet! (The VCF swap meet is not protected under any copyright laws whatsoever. Any unauthorized attendance at the VCF swap meet will result in those unauthorized attendees being sacked. VCF East 2020 is not affiliated with this event in any way, shape or form. Any similarities to VCF East are purely coincidental. No animals were harmed in the typing of this email) Tony Bogan Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 16, 2020, at 2:06 PM, Evan Koblentz <evan@snarc.net> wrote:
There's just not a lot of enticement for anyone else to go to them unless they are already interested in the topic.
Yes, exactly.
My job was to GROW the hobby and advocate to teach the public about computer history. Having a swap meet at the festivals would have done the opposite. Maybe you'd get a few more hardcore nerds attending, but at the expense of vastly more regular people. Consignment was the best compromise, and it was largely run by people like Kelly who knew how to organize it, and Corey who knew how to handle the $$$. I also added the Friday workshops (Ragooman's idea, R.I.P.) to keep the hardcore audience happy and raise more $$$. It worked pretty well, everyone would agree.
Anyone who STILL thinks I should've turned East into a swap meet is stuck in the 20th century and doesn't get the big picture of what we were trying to accomplish.
participants (3)
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Evan Koblentz -
Matt Reynolds -
Tony Bogan