We closed our museum (for the next couple of months) and began moving during the workshop this weekend. So far, we moved 26 boxes of books, with several more to go. We also bought our own trash can so we don't have to keep borrowing an InfoAge one, and we bought a box of contractor-grade trash bags. Jeff J. brought in the wide printer, which printer guru Ian thinks will work. We will get new cartridges to test it. Corey C. brought in a desoldering station. We'll need to get a regular soldering station, tools, etc. (we probably already have a decent scope: I don't know much about those, but I do know IA has a few and we might too; I'm honestly not sure if there if there is one in our warehouse.) This week I'll order the shelving. Fred and the InfoAge board chairmam both asked us to show our layout plan to InfoAge's design consultant (he's a volunteer). We did that, and he gave it the okay. Several of our own members saw the design during the workshop and everyone seems to like it. A few people made very helpful suggestions that we will use. There will be several "please help us move" emails from me during the next few weeks/months.
The basic layout for our new museum is here: http://www.vcfed.org/evan/9010layout.jpg Lots of important things to know: - There will be a welcome desk (lower left corner) by the entrance - Interior walls between the doors will have posters, display cases, etc. - All of the numbered stations are for microcomputers. Each station (except "1+2) is 36x24. - A picture of one such station (we got parts to built a test unit) is here: http://www.vcfed.org/evan/demo_shelf.jpg ... red lines on bottom show where there will be support rails (we didn't get those for the demo) and green lines on top show where signs will go. - Notice that the top shelf is slanted and has a lip. This is a great spot for printers, expansion units, similar models (for example, an Apple II below and a //c and GS above), etc. .... we'd avoid putting anything tall-ish up there, such as monitors, and anything with an upwardly sloped front (such as a //+ or //e). - We ordered shelf liners, too. - The spot labeled "1+2" will be 48x24 and will contain an ASR-33 and an electronic terminal -- whether it's a TVT or something professional is not yet decided. - Layout doesn't show the alcove, which is a small room to the upper-left (next to "CotM" -- Computer of the Month). Alcove will contain a few kid-sized desks, a (small) workbench, large LCD on the wall, and that sort of thing. - The museum floor is gray paint. We'll probably get nice-looking carpet runners for the aisles. - The "modern history" exhibit will probably be dark green panels against the wall (so we can take them with us to other events, or if we ever move again, etc.) with lines on them from the outside toward the center (evoking a PCB) .... each line will start with something that is now (relatively )obsolete (Rolodex, answering machine, camera, GPS, Gameboy, calculator, iPod, and so on -- I have a list of 27 things) and they'll all meet in the middle, where we'll put a smartphone. Sign will say, "Everything on this wall now fits in your pocket." Kind of neat! We've already shown these ideas to about 20 people in this group and at InfoAge in general. It's been well-received.
I assume you'll move things around periodically, but have you selected the opening day exhibits by table number yet? On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 12:44 PM, Evan Koblentz via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
The basic layout for our new museum is here: http://www.vcfed.org/evan/9010layout.jpg
Lots of important things to know:
- There will be a welcome desk (lower left corner) by the entrance
- Interior walls between the doors will have posters, display cases, etc.
- All of the numbered stations are for microcomputers. Each station (except "1+2) is 36x24.
- A picture of one such station (we got parts to built a test unit) is here: http://www.vcfed.org/evan/demo_shelf.jpg ... red lines on bottom show where there will be support rails (we didn't get those for the demo) and green lines on top show where signs will go.
- Notice that the top shelf is slanted and has a lip. This is a great spot for printers, expansion units, similar models (for example, an Apple II below and a //c and GS above), etc. .... we'd avoid putting anything tall-ish up there, such as monitors, and anything with an upwardly sloped front (such as a //+ or //e).
- We ordered shelf liners, too.
- The spot labeled "1+2" will be 48x24 and will contain an ASR-33 and an electronic terminal -- whether it's a TVT or something professional is not yet decided.
- Layout doesn't show the alcove, which is a small room to the upper-left (next to "CotM" -- Computer of the Month). Alcove will contain a few kid-sized desks, a (small) workbench, large LCD on the wall, and that sort of thing.
- The museum floor is gray paint. We'll probably get nice-looking carpet runners for the aisles.
- The "modern history" exhibit will probably be dark green panels against the wall (so we can take them with us to other events, or if we ever move again, etc.) with lines on them from the outside toward the center (evoking a PCB) .... each line will start with something that is now (relatively )obsolete (Rolodex, answering machine, camera, GPS, Gameboy, calculator, iPod, and so on -- I have a list of 27 things) and they'll all meet in the middle, where we'll put a smartphone. Sign will say, "Everything on this wall now fits in your pocket." Kind of neat!
We've already shown these ideas to about 20 people in this group and at InfoAge in general. It's been well-received.
-- <strong>@ BillDeg:</strong><br> Web: <a href="http://www.vintagecomputer.net/">vintagecomputer.net</a><br> Twitter: <a href="https://twitter.com/billdeg">@billdeg</a><br> Youtube: <a href="https://www.youtube.com/user/billdeg">@billdeg</a><br> <a href="http://www.vintagecomputer.net/readme.cfm">Unauthorized Bio</a>
We had discussions here a couple of months ago -- pick 32, pick 20, etc. -- and now that our layout is done, it'll be "pick 24" microcomputers for us to semi-permanently display in the new museum space. As written by Degnan:
I assume you'll move things around periodically
Correct. There are 25 stations, and each station could have one or two additional computers on its top shelf, but we definitely need to decide on the semi-permanent 24 systems. There's also the Computer-of-the-Month unit. TVT would probably go in the intro/Dudley unit, so that doesn't count against this latest list: 1. Apple 1 (top shelf: other SBCs/trainers -- Microtutor, KIM, etc.) 2. Apple 2 (top shelf: other models of the // series) 3. Apple Lisa (top shelf: TBD) 4. Apple Mac 128K (top shelf: TBD) 5. Laptops: Tandy Model 100, DG One, Mac Portable (top shelf: "other") 6. Atari 800 (top shelf: various other Ataris) 7. Commodore PET 2001 (top shelf: TBD) 8. Commodore 64 (top shelf: VIC-20, 128) 9. Commodore Amiga (top shelf: TBD) 10. Osborne (top shelf: Compaq Portable) 11. IBM 5100 (top shelf: HP-85b) 12. IBM 5150 (top shelf: printer, etc.) 13. Generic PC clone for Windows 3.1 (top shelf: TBD) 14. IMSAI 8080 (top shelf: TBD) 15. Standard shelving unit (no slanted shelf) of other S-100 systems from our collection: SOL-20, SWTPc, North* Horizon, Cromemco Z2H, etc.) 16. Mark-8 and Scelbi 8-H (top shelf: TBD) 17. MITS Altair 8800 (top shelf: Open Letter, MSFT BASIC tape, etc.) 20. NeXTstation (top shelf: TBD) 21. Sinclair ZX-80, -81, Timex-Sinclair 1000 (they're all tiny) (top shelf: Amstrad, since it's British) 22. TI-99/4A (top shelf: TBD) 23. TRS-80 Model 1 (top shelf: CoCo) 24: Xerox 860 (top shelf: TBD) A wall-mounted display could include various handheld/pocket computers, early PDAs, etc. Most others that jump to mind are CotM candidates: later Tandys, NCR, Franklin/Laser, OSI Challenger, etc. Remember that what's on the 24-item list is based on many factors -- what's historical, what we actually have that works, what's nice-looking, etc.
what are the minis? On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 1:51 PM, Evan Koblentz via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
We had discussions here a couple of months ago -- pick 32, pick 20, etc. -- and now that our layout is done, it'll be "pick 24" microcomputers for us to semi-permanently display in the new museum space.
As written by Degnan:
I assume you'll move things around periodically
Correct.
There are 25 stations, and each station could have one or two additional computers on its top shelf, but we definitely need to decide on the semi-permanent 24 systems.
There's also the Computer-of-the-Month unit.
TVT would probably go in the intro/Dudley unit, so that doesn't count against this latest list:
1. Apple 1 (top shelf: other SBCs/trainers -- Microtutor, KIM, etc.) 2. Apple 2 (top shelf: other models of the // series) 3. Apple Lisa (top shelf: TBD) 4. Apple Mac 128K (top shelf: TBD) 5. Laptops: Tandy Model 100, DG One, Mac Portable (top shelf: "other") 6. Atari 800 (top shelf: various other Ataris) 7. Commodore PET 2001 (top shelf: TBD) 8. Commodore 64 (top shelf: VIC-20, 128) 9. Commodore Amiga (top shelf: TBD) 10. Osborne (top shelf: Compaq Portable) 11. IBM 5100 (top shelf: HP-85b) 12. IBM 5150 (top shelf: printer, etc.) 13. Generic PC clone for Windows 3.1 (top shelf: TBD) 14. IMSAI 8080 (top shelf: TBD) 15. Standard shelving unit (no slanted shelf) of other S-100 systems from our collection: SOL-20, SWTPc, North* Horizon, Cromemco Z2H, etc.) 16. Mark-8 and Scelbi 8-H (top shelf: TBD) 17. MITS Altair 8800 (top shelf: Open Letter, MSFT BASIC tape, etc.) 20. NeXTstation (top shelf: TBD) 21. Sinclair ZX-80, -81, Timex-Sinclair 1000 (they're all tiny) (top shelf: Amstrad, since it's British) 22. TI-99/4A (top shelf: TBD) 23. TRS-80 Model 1 (top shelf: CoCo) 24: Xerox 860 (top shelf: TBD)
A wall-mounted display could include various handheld/pocket computers, early PDAs, etc.
Most others that jump to mind are CotM candidates: later Tandys, NCR, Franklin/Laser, OSI Challenger, etc.
Remember that what's on the 24-item list is based on many factors -- what's historical, what we actually have that works, what's nice-looking, etc.
-- <strong>@ BillDeg:</strong><br> Web: <a href="http://www.vintagecomputer.net/">vintagecomputer.net</a><br> Twitter: <a href="https://twitter.com/billdeg">@billdeg</a><br> Youtube: <a href="https://www.youtube.com/user/billdeg">@billdeg</a><br> <a href="http://www.vintagecomputer.net/readme.cfm">Unauthorized Bio</a>
There are 25 stations, and each station could have one or two additional computers on its top shelf, but we definitely need to decide on the semi-permanent 24 systems.
There's also the Computer-of-the-Month unit.
TVT would probably go in the intro/Dudley unit, so that doesn't count against this latest list:
1. Apple 1 (top shelf: other SBCs/trainers -- Microtutor, KIM, etc.) 2. Apple 2 (top shelf: other models of the // series) 3. Apple Lisa (top shelf: TBD) 4. Apple Mac 128K (top shelf: TBD) 5. Laptops: Tandy Model 100, DG One, Mac Portable (top shelf: "other") 6. Atari 800 (top shelf: various other Ataris) 7. Commodore PET 2001 (top shelf: TBD) 8. Commodore 64 (top shelf: VIC-20, 128) 9. Commodore Amiga (top shelf: TBD) 10. Osborne (top shelf: Compaq Portable) 11. IBM 5100 (top shelf: HP-85b) 12. IBM 5150 (top shelf: printer, etc.) 13. Generic PC clone for Windows 3.1 (top shelf: TBD) 14. IMSAI 8080 (top shelf: TBD) 15. Standard shelving unit (no slanted shelf) of other S-100 systems from our collection: SOL-20, SWTPc, North* Horizon, Cromemco Z2H, etc.) 16. Mark-8 and Scelbi 8-H (top shelf: TBD) 17. MITS Altair 8800 (top shelf: Open Letter, MSFT BASIC tape, etc.) 20. NeXTstation (top shelf: TBD) 21. Sinclair ZX-80, -81, Timex-Sinclair 1000 (they're all tiny) (top shelf: Amstrad, since it's British) 22. TI-99/4A (top shelf: TBD) 23. TRS-80 Model 1 (top shelf: CoCo) 24: Xerox 860 (top shelf: TBD)
A wall-mounted display could include various handheld/pocket computers, early PDAs, etc.
Most others that jump to mind are CotM candidates: later Tandys, NCR, Franklin/Laser, OSI Challenger, etc.
Remember that what's on the 24-item list is based on many factors -- what's historical, what we actually have that works, what's nice-looking, etc.
No feedback yet? I'm kind of disappointed. :)
On 2/4/2016 11:35 PM, Evan Koblentz via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
There are 25 stations, and each station could have one or two additional computers on its top shelf, but we definitely need to decide on the semi-permanent 24 systems.
There's also the Computer-of-the-Month unit.
15. Standard shelving unit (no slanted shelf) of other S-100 systems from our collection: SOL-20, SWTPc, North* Horizon, Cromemco Z2H, etc.)
No feedback yet? I'm kind of disappointed. :)
Evan, The last time we had this discussion I emphasized the need to have the SS-50 Bus SWTP 6800 system on display because at the time in the mid-70's it offered the only real alternative to the S-100 bus based Intel/Zilog systems of the time. SWTP sold these kits and video terminal kits direct to hobbyists so many got started in the microcomputer hobby because of them. This kind of got passed over in that discussion for other systems so I am glad that it now shows up on this list. I built their CT-64 terminal kit right after I built my IMSAI and while the build quality was not up to IMSAI standards, it was cost effective and worked well when completed. I am glad to see SWTP represented. Regards, Jeff Galinat
My partial list, only systems I’m particularly fond of: Franklin ACE 100, maybe a 1000 instead. Disclosure: I was an engineer for those. They were all made in NJ. Apple II. It was a hugely popular machine that many people can identify with. Apple II says funded the Mac and kept Apple going. C64. Again, very popular. Atari 800. Lots of people actually watched the movie about ET and know Atari. Early Mac. First PC. No need for nameless clones. IMSAI Osborne. People are shocked to see a “portable” computer from that era. TRS-80. With RS on the decline it’s nice to see when they were really selling a lot of stuff. Bob
My partial list, only systems I’m particularly fond of
I'd say all the systems you listed are shoo-ins. The reason we'd display a generic 386 in addition to the original IBM PC is because clones defined (and continue to define) a whole era, and also to demonstrate Windows 3.1, which (whether we like it or not) brought the GUI to mainstream* businesses and home users. * Whereas prior sales by Apple and others only reached a tiny percentage of the general public
On Sat, Feb 6, 2016 at 8:48 AM, Evan Koblentz via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
My partial list, only systems I’m particularly fond of
I'd say all the systems you listed are shoo-ins.
The reason we'd display a generic 386 in addition to the original IBM PC is because clones defined (and continue to define) a whole era, and also to demonstrate Windows 3.1, which (whether we like it or not) brought the GUI to mainstream* businesses and home users.
* Whereas prior sales by Apple and others only reached a tiny percentage of the general public
There was a price war in 1992 among the makers due to clones, agreed. All majors were losing money.. I vote, respectfully, that you consider using the one clone maker that turned "name brand" in 1992 ... Gateway 2000's In other words, historically Gateway 2000's "year" was 1992, their sales increased the most of any year they were on the market in 1992. Historically this pairs with the Win 3.1 launch quite nicely and would look better than a clone, if you have one.
Another note -- where it says "intro and Dudley," that refers to what we're calling "The Dudley-8" -- the homebrewed PDP-8 that member Bill Dudley built way back in the early 70s. We have other homebrewed systems, but this one is our favorite example of a truly home-made system from before the kit era. It'll help show the transition into microcomputing.
On Thu, 4 Feb 2016, Evan Koblentz via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
- The museum floor is gray paint. We'll probably get nice-looking carpet runners for the aisles.
Anti-static carpet, or carpet treatment? Mike Loewen mloewen@cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/
- The museum floor is gray paint. We'll probably get nice-looking carpet runners for the aisles.
Anti-static carpet, or carpet treatment?
To be determined. Price will be a big factor. We may have hold off on the carpet entirely until after VCF East. I'm not sure if we need anti-static, because the carpets would only be for walkways; the stools would be on the floor directly.
On Feb 4, 2016, at 4:41 PM, Evan Koblentz via vcf-midatlantic<vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
- The museum floor is gray paint. We'll probably get nice-looking carpet runners for the aisles.
Anti-static carpet, or carpet treatment?
To be determined. Price will be a big factor. We may have hold off on the carpet entirely until after VCF East. I'm not sure if we need anti-static, because the carpets would only be for walkways; the stools would be on the floor directly. Take it from someone who worked in electronics manufacturing for 10 years and electronics repair for 5, the carpet needs to be static safe or not at all, despite only being in the aisles. If you don't believe me, take it from Woz: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WNb3TUNf0A
I see all sorts of information online about anti-static carpet ... except what it costs. Anyone know?
Not cheap. http://m.globalindustrial.com/m/p/foodservice/mats-carpets/anti-static/24-x-... On Feb 4, 2016, at 5:48 PM, Evan Koblentz via vcf-midatlantic<vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote: I see all sorts of information online about anti-static carpet ... except what it costs. Anyone know?
Not cheap.
http://m.globalindustrial.com/m/p/foodservice/mats-carpets/anti-static/24-x-...
Google says the tiled-carpet versions around $4-$5/sq.ft. .... anyway, this stuff will almost certainly have to wait, due to cost. In the interim, we could at least encourage visitors not to touch anything, by having colorful taped routes on the floor and lots of please-don't-touch signs (made in the shape/design of red stop signs). Or, we invest in invisible dog fences. :)
Problem with the invisible dog fence is that we'd have to collar all of the guests. LOL On Thursday, February 4, 2016, Evan Koblentz via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
Not cheap.
http://m.globalindustrial.com/m/p/foodservice/mats-carpets/anti-static/24-x-...
Google says the tiled-carpet versions around $4-$5/sq.ft. .... anyway, this stuff will almost certainly have to wait, due to cost.
In the interim, we could at least encourage visitors not to touch anything, by having colorful taped routes on the floor and lots of please-don't-touch signs (made in the shape/design of red stop signs).
Or, we invest in invisible dog fences. :)
-- Normal Person: Hey, it seems that you know a lot. Geek: To be honest, it's due to all the surfing I do. Normal Person: So you go surfing? Normal Person: But I don't think that has anything to do with knowing a lot... Geek: I think that's wrong on a fundamental level. Normal Person: Huh? Huh? What?
Maybe I missed this, but is there any reason to have carpet at all? Carpet take more upkeep than a non-carpeted floor. On Fri, Feb 5, 2016 at 8:30 AM, Joseph Oprysko via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
Problem with the invisible dog fence is that we'd have to collar all of the guests. LOL
On Thursday, February 4, 2016, Evan Koblentz via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
Not cheap.
http://m.globalindustrial.com/m/p/foodservice/mats-carpets/anti-static/24-x-...
Google says the tiled-carpet versions around $4-$5/sq.ft. .... anyway, this stuff will almost certainly have to wait, due to cost.
In the interim, we could at least encourage visitors not to touch anything, by having colorful taped routes on the floor and lots of please-don't-touch signs (made in the shape/design of red stop signs).
Or, we invest in invisible dog fences. :)
-- Normal Person: Hey, it seems that you know a lot. Geek: To be honest, it's due to all the surfing I do. Normal Person: So you go surfing? Normal Person: But I don't think that has anything to do with knowing a lot... Geek: I think that's wrong on a fundamental level. Normal Person: Huh? Huh? What?
What's the target resistance ? ANSI / ESD S 20-20 is 35 meg ohms or less.
On Feb 4, 2016, at 5:53 PM, Chris via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
Not cheap.
http://m.globalindustrial.com/m/p/foodservice/mats-carpets/anti-static/24-x-...
On Feb 4, 2016, at 5:48 PM, Evan Koblentz via vcf-midatlantic<vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org>
Copper tape from the carpet to a ground point to drain any static charges On Fri, Feb 5, 2016 at 10:17 AM, Martin Flynn via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
What's the target resistance ? ANSI / ESD S 20-20 is 35 meg ohms or less.
On Feb 4, 2016, at 5:53 PM, Chris via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
Not cheap.
http://m.globalindustrial.com/m/p/foodservice/mats-carpets/anti-static/24-x-...
On Feb 4, 2016, at 5:48 PM, Evan Koblentz via vcf-midatlantic<
vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org>
The carpet needs to be conductive too or else not much will drain. Bob Sent from my iPhone
On Feb 5, 2016, at 12:10 PM, Dean Notarnicola via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
Copper tape from the carpet to a ground point to drain any static charges
On Fri, Feb 5, 2016 at 10:17 AM, Martin Flynn via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
What's the target resistance ? ANSI / ESD S 20-20 is 35 meg ohms or less.
On Feb 4, 2016, at 5:53 PM, Chris via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
Not cheap. http://m.globalindustrial.com/m/p/foodservice/mats-carpets/anti-static/24-x-...
On Feb 4, 2016, at 5:48 PM, Evan Koblentz via vcf-midatlantic< vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org>
On Thursday, February 04, 2016 17:53:58 Chris via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
Not cheap.
http://m.globalindustrial.com/m/p/foodservice/mats-carpets/anti-static/24-x-> 48-mat-ultimat-black-um-2448b
On Feb 4, 2016, at 5:48 PM, Evan Koblentz via vcf-midatlantic<vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
I see all sorts of information online about anti-static carpet ... except what it costs. Anyone know? That looks like matting for bench top use, not floor use.
Tom
FYI, This is only half of the solution. Shoes are not conductive when it involves ESD, so The anti-static carpet only works on one condition - as they are meant to provide discharge path, so 1. If you are wearing anti-static boot straps - as in a Lab --- I doubt the visitors have this 2. wearing ESD conductive shoes ---> again, I doubt the visitors will have this You like to have the person discharged before you ever enter the room. As you don't know how much charge they might have, you can have 100,000ev without even knowing it. Even if you had just concrete, they can still be charged coming from some other part of InfoAge Especially when they have ordinary carpet elsewhere -- remember the door knob jolt. And it's .more. prevalent when the humidity is very low - as in the winter, or in super cold A/C. It's nice to have a climate-controlled environment but it's not always possible[$$$] As you have a need for all 4 systems, A/C, Heater, Humidifier, and Dehumidifier. All combinations in the environment can exist, cold/dry, cold/wet, hot/dry, or hot/wet. The quickest way is to build a simple ESD Grounding station at the entrance. All it takes is, 1. a 1meg ohm resistor -- to slowly bleed off the ESD - no jolts 2. some metal [eg. door knob] that is isolated -- something plastic, eg, pvc 3. and then wired to earth ground. Then you don't get the zaps or jolts when touching this to discharge yourself - as on a typical door knob. The have some kind of sign, such as, "Keep Computers Safe, Get Rid of Static, Please Discharge" with an arrow pointing to that. Dan
Then you don't get the zaps or jolts when touching this to discharge yourself - as on a typical door knob. The have some kind of sign, such as, "Keep Computers Safe, Get Rid of Static, Please Discharge" with an arrow pointing to that.
Veeeeeery interesting. Sure would be a lot simpler than installing and maintaining all the special flooring. On Feb 6, 2016, Dan Roganti via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
FYI, This is only half of the solution. Shoes are not conductive when it involves ESD, so The anti-static carpet only works on one condition - as they are meant to provide discharge path, so 1. If you are wearing anti-static boot straps - as in a Lab --- I doubt the visitors have this 2. wearing ESD conductive shoes ---> again, I doubt the visitors will have this
You like to have the person discharged before you ever enter the room. As you don't know how much charge they might have, you can have 100,000ev without even knowing it. Even if you had just concrete, they can still be charged coming from some other part of InfoAge Especially when they have ordinary carpet elsewhere -- remember the door knob jolt. And it's .more. prevalent when the humidity is very low - as in the winter, or in super cold A/C. It's nice to have a climate-controlled environment but it's not always possible[$$$] As you have a need for all 4 systems, A/C, Heater, Humidifier, and Dehumidifier. All combinations in the environment can exist, cold/dry, cold/wet, hot/dry, or hot/wet.
The quickest way is to build a simple ESD Grounding station at the entrance. All it takes is, 1. a 1meg ohm resistor -- to slowly bleed off the ESD - no jolts 2. some metal [eg. door knob] that is isolated -- something plastic, eg, pvc 3. and then wired to earth ground.
Then you don't get the zaps or jolts when touching this to discharge yourself - as on a typical door knob. The have some kind of sign, such as, "Keep Computers Safe, Get Rid of Static, Please Discharge" with an arrow pointing to that. Dan
On Feb 6, 2016, at 7:41 AM, Dan Roganti via vcf-midatlantic<vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote: FYI, This is only half of the solution. Shoes are not conductive when it involves ESD, so The anti-static carpet only works on one condition - as they are meant to provide discharge path, so 1. If you are wearing anti-static boot straps - as in a Lab --- I doubt the visitors have this 2. wearing ESD conductive shoes ---> again, I doubt the visitors will have this You like to have the person discharged before you ever enter the room. As you don't know how much charge they might have, you can have 100,000ev without even knowing it. Even if you had just concrete, they can still be charged coming from some other part of InfoAge Especially when they have ordinary carpet elsewhere -- remember the door knob jolt. And it's .more. prevalent when the humidity is very low - as in the winter, or in super cold A/C. It's nice to have a climate-controlled environment but it's not always possible[$$$] As you have a need for all 4 systems, A/C, Heater, Humidifier, and Dehumidifier. All combinations in the environment can exist, cold/dry, cold/wet, hot/dry, or hot/wet. The quickest way is to build a simple ESD Grounding station at the entrance. All it takes is, 1. a 1meg ohm resistor -- to slowly bleed off the ESD - no jolts 2. some metal [eg. door knob] that is isolated -- something plastic, eg, pvc 3. and then wired to earth ground. Then you don't get the zaps or jolts when touching this to discharge yourself - as on a typical door knob. The have some kind of sign, such as, "Keep Computers Safe, Get Rid of Static, Please Discharge" with an arrow pointing to that. Dan Dan is correct on all counts. Thanks for sharing! May I add that there is a difference between anti-static and conductive. In an ideal electronics work environment, things are conductive so that all static charges are quickly dissipated safely and never have a chance to discharge destructively through the equipment. Also, the conductivity is limited with a resistance, either added or inherent in the material, so that the discharge happens gently and not abruptly. In a lot of cases, conductive clothing (lab coat woven with conductive fibers) is also worn so that static fields don't damage equipment when they are in proximity to equipment. Contact is not necessary to cause a destructive discharge. Anti-static means that the materials are formulated so that they aren't contributors to causing a static charge buildup. They won't necessarily discharge a static charge, but the won't exacerbate the situation by acting like an insulator and holding a charge. I think that in our situation, we can't control the clothing that people are wearing, so it will never be an ideal situation. We just need to create an environment that isn't making the situation worse. No wool carpet or plexiglass panels. And limit visitors' contact with and proximity to sensitive equipment. Chris
On Feb 5, 2016, at 9:31 PM, "Tom H. via vcf-midatlantic"<vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote: On Thursday, February 04, 2016 17:53:58 Chris via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
Not cheap.
http://m.globalindustrial.com/m/p/foodservice/mats-carpets/anti-static/24-x-> 48-mat-ultimat-black-um-2448b
On Feb 4, 2016, at 5:48 PM, Evan Koblentz via vcf-midatlantic<vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
I see all sorts of information online about anti-static carpet ... except what it costs. Anyone know? That looks like matting for bench top use, not floor use.
Tom Correct, not for floors, sorry for not looking more closely before I sent the link. :-( Glad I found this though, cheaper than the last one I bought for my workbench!
Everyone -- I talked to Corey and others -- we're going to skip carpeting and ESD flooring entirely for now -- but we may revisit this post-VCF East.
Ps. I like Dan's idea! Simple grounding station near our entrance.
On Feb 6, 2016, at 9:28 AM, Evan Koblentz via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
Ps. I like Dan's idea! Simple grounding station near our entrance.
A small display at the discharge station can have some information about ESD. Most people have zero understanding of it. I dealt with a Senior Software Engineer who blew up multiple prototype boards because he “knew” how to handle electronics and didn’t follow well-established company rules. Bob
On Sat, Feb 6, 2016 at 2:07 PM, Bob Applegate via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
On Feb 6, 2016, at 9:28 AM, Evan Koblentz via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
Ps. I like Dan's idea! Simple grounding station near our entrance.
A small display at the discharge station can have some information about ESD. Most people have zero understanding of it. I dealt with a Senior Software Engineer who blew up multiple prototype boards because he “knew” how to handle electronics and didn’t follow well-established company rules.
Bob
To further enlighten the public with some hands on education, You could pickup a "Electrostatic meter" on eB@y Some vintage ones even go for less than $100 And show how many electron-volts they have stored inside themselves before they get discharged. All they need to do it touch the positive probe on the Electrostatic meter, read the measurement, and then touch the discharge station. The negative probe of the electrostatic meter connects to the same Earth ground. Dan
On Sat, 6 Feb 2016, Dan Roganti via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
On Sat, Feb 6, 2016 at 2:07 PM, Bob Applegate via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
On Feb 6, 2016, at 9:28 AM, Evan Koblentz via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
Ps. I like Dan's idea! Simple grounding station near our entrance.
A small display at the discharge station can have some information about ESD. Most people have zero understanding of it. I dealt with a Senior Software Engineer who blew up multiple prototype boards because he ?knew? how to handle electronics and didn?t follow well-established company rules.
Bob
?To further enlighten the public with some hands on education, You could pickup a "Electrostatic meter" on eB@y Some vintage ones even go for less than $100 And show how many electron-volts they have stored inside themselves ?before they get discharged. All they need to do it touch the positive probe on the Electrostatic meter, read the measurement, and then touch the discharge station. The negative probe of the electrostatic meter connects to the same Earth ground. Dan
That is a REALLY good idea, Dan! Mike Loewen mloewen@cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/
-----Original Message----- From: Mike Loewen via vcf-midatlantic Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2016 4:24 PM To: Dan Roganti via vcf-midatlantic Cc: Mike Loewen Subject: Re: [vcf-midatlantic] anti-static carpet On Sat, 6 Feb 2016, Dan Roganti via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
On Sat, Feb 6, 2016 at 2:07 PM, Bob Applegate via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
On Feb 6, 2016, at 9:28 AM, Evan Koblentz via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
Ps. I like Dan's idea! Simple grounding station near our entrance.
A small display at the discharge station can have some information about ESD. Most people have zero understanding of it. I dealt with a Senior Software Engineer who blew up multiple prototype boards because he ?knew? how to handle electronics and didn?t follow well-established company rules.
Bob
?To further enlighten the public with some hands on education, You could pickup a "Electrostatic meter" on eB@y Some vintage ones even go for less than $100 And show how many electron-volts they have stored inside themselves ?before they get discharged. All they need to do it touch the positive probe on the Electrostatic meter, read the measurement, and then touch the discharge station. The negative probe of the electrostatic meter connects to the same Earth ground. Dan
That is a REALLY good idea, Dan!
Mike Loewen mloewen@cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/
You might consider grounding the metal display racks, especially those having equipment having metal cases, less some unit having a ground fault cause the the rack to be hot. Anyone touching the rack would have any charge they had discharged. Duane
You might consider grounding the metal display racks, especially those having equipment having metal cases, less some unit having a ground fault cause the the rack to be hot.
Another great idea. We intend to use shelf liners, so in theory no system should be touching metal, but it could happen.
To further enlighten the public with some hands on education, You could pickup a "Electrostatic meter" on eB@y Some vintage ones even go for less than $100 And show how many electron-volts they have stored inside themselves before they get discharged. All they need to do it touch the positive probe on the Electrostatic meter, read the measurement, and then touch the discharge station. The negative probe of the electrostatic meter connects to the same Earth ground. Dan
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participants (13)
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Bob Applegate -
Chris -
Christian Liendo -
Dan Roganti -
Dean Notarnicola -
Duane -
Evan Koblentz -
Jeff Galinat -
Joseph Oprysko -
Martin Flynn -
Mike Loewen -
Tom H. -
william degnan