Interesting article about preserving Apple software (not hardware)
"Cracking" software to preserve it is akin to taking a picture of artwork and letting the original rot away in my opinion.
Sure, some of the original bit patterns are intact, but it's not close to an original in any sense of the word.
I don't see the need to trash-talk, people who are working hard to recover programs and files from digital media. I"ve worked with a number of people who recover files from diskettes and audio cassettes. I'm doing so today. Some work with the physical media, some work with decoding the "flux changes", some with emulators and some with vintage or modern-replica hardware. Some even resurrect hardware unavailable, or never available. They all, are collectively preserving programs and vintage computers, and making the experience of operating those programs available again. They are getting results. Results matter. I'm in no position to judge the merits of the product and services he's described. He's welcome to be enthusiastic, have particular interests, want to preserve certain things. I just don't care that he calls out other people's good work in the way he has. If we don't defend the good work of others, then maybe they won't work so hard to do more. Or get started at all. There's reasons to keep discussions "of good will". This is a discussion group, not an advertising platform. Perhaps in Mr. Courbis' enthusiasm for a product release, he wasn't clear about that concept. herb johnson retrotechnology.com -- Herbert R. Johnson, New Jersey in the USA http://www.retrotechnology.com OR .net preserve, recover, restore 1970's computing email: hjohnson AT retrotechnology DOT com or try later herbjohnson AT retrotechnology DOT info
"Cracking" software to preserve it is akin to taking a picture of artwork and letting the original rot away in my opinion.
Sure, some of the original bit patterns are intact, but it's not close to an original in any sense of the word.
I don't see the need to trash-talk
Henry's comment did not strike me as trash-talking, just giving an opinion and comparing what that group is doing vs. Applesauce.
If we don't defend the good work of others, then maybe they won't work so hard to do more. Or get started at all.
Agreed.
I did not read Henry's comments as trash talking either, but rather his take on the differences between what's transpired, what's transpiring and what's just over the horizon. Additionally, I tend to agree with henry that the current efforts may be better than nothing, and I applaud any and all efforts to preserve our computing history, but it is not true preservation of the original material, which I believe we should be striving for whenever possible (and it will shortly be possible...yay!!) I'm just as happy with the current state of preservation of all of the cracked versions of Apple II software that's already out there (disk images already in existence). Putting aside the piracy issue, (it is all past tense in this instance) the cracker groups, crack screens and programming skills involved in those cracked titles is also part of the history. I'm excited that the software will be preserved in both its original and cracked versions. At least to the best of everyone's abilities. To add another layer (software without copy protection but not "cracked") will, in my opinion only, be unnecessary once we have pristine copies with that protection intact along with the originally cracked versions. But that's just my opinion. Tony
I've read Henry's response and other responses. Since I made a claim, I'll reply to Henry's response. Now Henry's much clearer, about what he was talking about. Now he explains, the actual problems with cracked "heavily-protected software". He's made a case now, narrowed his focus, and he's more informative. That's "on the merits", not just one opinion versus another. It was not reasonable, to expect everyone in a general vintage-computing list, to know the history of Apple II software protection. I surely don't, now I learned something. As I said, I was unhappy about the tone of his first remarks, they lacked facts and context. His next post was more thoughtful and informative, and he apologized for the misunderstanding. That's fine with me, thank you. As for my suggestion about "advertising" and Henry's response "I'm not sure what you mean?" Well, if I explain "here's why I think you were promoting your business and this product" - then I'll publicly embarrass Mr. Courbis, who is conciliatory and has an explanation. So I'll say again, his second post offers clarifying information. It separates his business interests from his clear enthusiasm for this upcoming product, which apparently isn't a product-to-sell (?). And apparently, a list of phone numbers and Web links is his normal email "signature". But Henry... here's what confuses me... "/end shameless plug" and that list following, did confuse me a bit about your intentions. It's humorous, but... And, um, "I think my lack of posting about actual products I sell speaks for itself." That's unintentionally humorous. I only have two emails from you, now - how do I know what you DON'T say? Live and learn, as they say. Thanks for your patient and polite explanation and clarifications. Back to vintage computing. But first - There's nothing wrong with doing business in vintage computing. I do so myself on *my* Web site. It's a challenge to keep some of the business side, out of my correspondence in general-discussion groups. I do so, so people can have some trust in what I talk about, that there's merits to my words and considerations. But my Web pages are useful, that's their intention. It's a challenge, sometimes I don't succeed, but good will and focus on the merits works pretty well. Herb Johnson Herbert R. Johnson, New Jersey in the USA http://www.retrotechnology.com OR .net
It's a challenge to keep some of the business side, out of my correspondence in general-discussion groups. I do so, so people can have some trust in what I talk about, that there's merits to my words and considerations.
You and Henry are both well-known and widely respected in your areas of expertise. Plug away here if you ever feel the desire.
Well, that was some response to the article I shared! Certainly not what I expected, but in a way I'm glad to generate some discussion. Thanks for the great responses! Chris On Thu, Mar 29, 2018, 9:06 PM Evan Koblentz via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
It's a challenge to keep some of the business side, out of my correspondence in general-discussion groups. I do so, so people can have some trust in what I talk about, that there's merits to my words and considerations.
You and Henry are both well-known and widely respected in your areas of expertise. Plug away here if you ever feel the desire.
Plug away here if you ever feel the desire.
Thanks Evan! At some point when there is something noteworthy I may send out a list announcement. However few, if any, of the projects I work on I feel are noteworthy to be honest. The TRS-80 and Commodore PSUs may break that silence however. Since they aren't Apple II related and this is the only other mailing list I know where those users are active. I may also post on some facebook groups when the time comes. But even than the PSUs are just reworks of the Apple II PSU. So nothing really groundbreaking there.
I'm glad to generate some discussion. Thanks for the great responses!
And I'm glad you posted it also! Always good to hear from everyone in the Community and see what's going on along with thoughts behind things rather than just bland news. And I for one like when users "plug" or share links to sites with more info or places to buy things. I've found many neat and interesting sites while on this list. And I really hope that tradition keeps going. The Wifi modems were one such item I'm not sure I would have heard about if it wasn't for this list. And I know I never would have found the places to buy them. Hopefully I turned a few people on to the current news as well and gave a little back. You guys here rock! Keep it up! Henry S. Courbis Office Toll Free: (800) REACTIVE (732-2848) Office/Mobile Direct: (856) 779-1900 www.ReActiveMicro.com <http://www.ReactiveMicro.com> - Sales, Support, and News, Our Headquarters on the Internet ReActiveMicro.com/wiki - Support, Software, Manuals, and History. Create your own page today! Facebook.com/reactivemicrousa - Our Social Media Outlet and Support On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 6:36 PM, Christopher Gioconda via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
Well, that was some response to the article I shared! Certainly not what I expected, but in a way I'm glad to generate some discussion. Thanks for the great responses!
Chris
On Thu, Mar 29, 2018, 9:06 PM Evan Koblentz via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
It's a challenge to keep some of the business side, out of my correspondence in general-discussion groups. I do so, so people can have some trust in what I talk about, that there's merits to my words and considerations.
You and Henry are both well-known and widely respected in your areas of expertise. Plug away here if you ever feel the desire.
On Mar 29, 2018, at 9:01 PM, Herb Johnson via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
"/end shameless plug" and that list following, did confuse me a bit about your intentions. It's humorous, but...
Now I see where this all stemmed from. I'll admit I was a bit confused by your initial response herb. I appreciate your explanation and civil back and forth. One of the things I like about this list and the people on it!! I took the "/end shameless self plugs" as referring to henry providing links in email to the applesauce wiki, (which he created) explanations and mentioning (and linking) to his newsletter so people could keep up on news of this products release (as he said it) I'm a little slow on the uptake sometimes, but it's all clear to me now! :-) I'll echo chris' response and thank everyone for their comments and well thought out responses. This is something near and dear to my heart (apple software, preservation, etc) and having watched this project since its inception something I'm very excited to see finally coming to fruition. Tony
Hello Herb.
trash-talk
I'm not trash talking, so please don't take it as such and I'm sorry that you did. If I was against something in even the slightest way I would use much harsher language and not left it unknown or nebulous in the slightest. I think I was pretty clear and concise in my words, albeit I'm not the most eloquent of people. To the contrary I much support all the past work done and all efforts to preserve our digital past. And I still stand by my words - "In my opinion... [cracked software is] in no means 'preserved'. Closest I can come to a definition is 'emulated'." To be concise - Cracking has been some of the best ways to date in order to get heavily protected software able to be reproduced. However it's not original. The protection is lost, title screens are lost, and in a lot of cases it does not fully work. Authors have attested to hidden protection checks which were never discovered or disabled in the cracked versions, and the program will not run the same as the original. It's not impossible to fully crack something, however the amount of effort to fully check a program is not short of monumental - which was the whole reason those secondary "quiet" checks were used. A program won't crash or not run, it just doesn't work the same or is disabled in some random or critical way. And worst of all - no protection means future crackers will have nothing to practice their craft on. Or perhaps you mean things are "good enough" that we have a crack screen with graffiti, missing title screens or credits, and a menu screen from a program which is displayed but might not work like the original? However I don't honestly think this is where you are coming from, nor would I assume this. As I would hope you wouldn't assume I was trash talking the efforts of those who crack by presenting news on a new project that will change the way our software is preserved - and fully preserved.
This is a discussion group, not an advertising platform.
Again, I'm sorry you took my reply as such. I'm not sure what "advertizing" I was doing however. A Wiki page link? Subscribe to a newsletter to know about when a related item of the topic will be released? Perhaps you are not aware that I am not selling the item discussed, nor is there an official news outlet or website besides a signal twitter account which isn't updated that often. You can barely find any mentions doing even the most in depth google search. I have taken on the task of trying to keep people informed while letting the designer work and concentrate on more important matters. I think my lack of posting about actual products I sell speaks for itself. I do however appreciate your views and feedback, and always like hearing from people of the Community and discussing topics they enjoy and hold dear. And hopefully now I am more clear in my intentions. Henry S. Courbis Office Toll Free: (800) REACTIVE (732-2848) Office/Mobile Direct: (856) 779-1900 www.ReActiveMicro.com <http://www.ReactiveMicro.com> - Sales, Support, and News, Our Headquarters on the Internet ReActiveMicro.com/wiki - Support, Software, Manuals, and History. Create your own page today! Facebook.com/reactivemicrousa - Our Social Media Outlet and Support On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 2:07 PM, Herb Johnson via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
"Cracking" software to preserve it is akin to taking a picture of artwork
and letting the original rot away in my opinion.
Sure, some of the original bit patterns are intact, but it's not close to an original in any sense of the word.
I don't see the need to trash-talk, people who are working hard to recover programs and files from digital media.
I"ve worked with a number of people who recover files from diskettes and audio cassettes. I'm doing so today. Some work with the physical media, some work with decoding the "flux changes", some with emulators and some with vintage or modern-replica hardware. Some even resurrect hardware unavailable, or never available. They all, are collectively preserving programs and vintage computers, and making the experience of operating those programs available again. They are getting results. Results matter.
I'm in no position to judge the merits of the product and services he's described. He's welcome to be enthusiastic, have particular interests, want to preserve certain things. I just don't care that he calls out other people's good work in the way he has.
If we don't defend the good work of others, then maybe they won't work so hard to do more. Or get started at all. There's reasons to keep discussions "of good will". This is a discussion group, not an advertising platform. Perhaps in Mr. Courbis' enthusiasm for a product release, he wasn't clear about that concept.
herb johnson retrotechnology.com
-- Herbert R. Johnson, New Jersey in the USA http://www.retrotechnology.com OR .net preserve, recover, restore 1970's computing email: hjohnson AT retrotechnology DOT com or try later herbjohnson AT retrotechnology DOT info
I think that both methods have their merits: 1) preserving the software with protection 2) preserving the software without protection (cracked or otherwise) Keeping the protection preserves the copy protection methods. Removing the protection can be easier on the disk drives as some protection methods are aggressive and throw drives out of alignment. In any case, the important thing is to have the software preserved before it goes into the bit bucket, never to return again ......... On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 5:07 PM, Herb Johnson via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
"Cracking" software to preserve it is akin to taking a picture of artwork
and letting the original rot away in my opinion.
Sure, some of the original bit patterns are intact, but it's not close to an original in any sense of the word.
I don't see the need to trash-talk, people who are working hard to recover programs and files from digital media.
I"ve worked with a number of people who recover files from diskettes and audio cassettes. I'm doing so today. Some work with the physical media, some work with decoding the "flux changes", some with emulators and some with vintage or modern-replica hardware. Some even resurrect hardware unavailable, or never available. They all, are collectively preserving programs and vintage computers, and making the experience of operating those programs available again. They are getting results. Results matter.
I'm in no position to judge the merits of the product and services he's described. He's welcome to be enthusiastic, have particular interests, want to preserve certain things. I just don't care that he calls out other people's good work in the way he has.
If we don't defend the good work of others, then maybe they won't work so hard to do more. Or get started at all. There's reasons to keep discussions "of good will". This is a discussion group, not an advertising platform. Perhaps in Mr. Courbis' enthusiasm for a product release, he wasn't clear about that concept.
herb johnson retrotechnology.com
-- Herbert R. Johnson, New Jersey in the USA http://www.retrotechnology.com OR .net preserve, recover, restore 1970's computing email: hjohnson AT retrotechnology DOT com or try later herbjohnson AT retrotechnology DOT info
participants (6)
-
Christopher Gioconda -
Evan Koblentz -
Henry S. Courbis -
Herb Johnson -
Jeffrey Brace -
Tony Bogan