Related to my post yesterday, I have a SASI XEBEC 104526 rev 4 that works ok when there is a fan blowing on it but overheats after a while. It controls a SASI external hard drive used by a Visual 1050 computer. OK, I will look through the electronics and replace failing components and sure it up. Seems like the typical course of action for an XEBEC and other (SASI) external controllers. I am also thinking about the CBM 9090 and related 5-10Mb drives. 35 years in, they all seem to be failed or failing. Similar XEBEC controllers for things like IBM PC's seem to have fared better. Why? Or just a coincidence? Is there a common component that fails more often in SASI controllers but not IDE and others of the era? I know the history of SASI/SCSI and I have some XEBEC docs. I can research further on my own, but maybe someone who actually supported these back when they were new has some casual knowledge to pass along. How reliable were these when they were new/current? Bill
On Sat, Dec 17, 2016 at 10:06 AM, william degnan via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
Related to my post yesterday, I have a SASI XEBEC 104526 rev 4 that works ok when there is a fan blowing on it but overheats after a while. It controls a SASI external hard drive used by a Visual 1050 computer. OK, I will look through the electronics and replace failing components and sure it up. Seems like the typical course of action for an XEBEC and other (SASI) external controllers. I am also thinking about the CBM 9090 and related 5-10Mb drives. 35 years in, they all seem to be failed or failing. Similar XEBEC controllers for things like IBM PC's seem to have fared better. Why? Or just a coincidence? Is there a common component that fails more often in SASI controllers but not IDE and others of the era?
I know the history of SASI/SCSI and I have some XEBEC docs. I can research further on my own, but maybe someone who actually supported these back when they were new has some casual knowledge to pass along. How reliable were these when they were new/current?
Bill
I don't have any repair history of that board, I think that's a long shot Unless you find someone who worked at XEBEC, they would have a more comprehensive view of failures. And most if not all of those components are well beyond their mtbf rating already. So that basically means, anything can go wrong. But the basic repair steps for something like this include several options One of which is using a ol' tried and true method of finding the hot component, your finger :) That's if the slot has room for you to get in there. There's other options such as using a temperature probe[thermocouple] adapter for your DMM. So you can measure the heat from each component. Also, for these tricky problems it helps to have a thermal imager - they're getting cheaper every year. Then you can pinpoint the source of the heat, but first turn off the Fan :) Dan
On Sat, Dec 17, 2016 at 11:03 AM, Dan Roganti <ragooman@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, Dec 17, 2016 at 10:06 AM, william degnan via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
Related to my post yesterday, I have a SASI XEBEC 104526 rev 4 that works ok when there is a fan blowing on it but overheats after a while. It controls a SASI external hard drive used by a Visual 1050 computer. OK, I will look through the electronics and replace failing components and sure it up. Seems like the typical course of action for an XEBEC and other (SASI) external controllers. I am also thinking about the CBM 9090 and related 5-10Mb drives. 35 years in, they all seem to be failed or failing. Similar XEBEC controllers for things like IBM PC's seem to have fared better. Why? Or just a coincidence? Is there a common component that fails more often in SASI controllers but not IDE and others of the era?
I know the history of SASI/SCSI and I have some XEBEC docs. I can research further on my own, but maybe someone who actually supported these back when they were new has some casual knowledge to pass along. How reliable were these when they were new/current?
Bill
I don't have any repair history of that board, I think that's a long shot Unless you find someone who worked at XEBEC, they would have a more comprehensive view of failures. And most if not all of those components are well beyond their mtbf rating already. So that basically means, anything can go wrong. But the basic repair steps for something like this include several options One of which is using a ol' tried and true method of finding the hot component, your finger :) That's if the slot has room for you to get in there. There's other options such as using a temperature probe[thermocouple] adapter for your DMM. So you can measure the heat from each component. Also, for these tricky problems it helps to have a thermal imager - they're getting cheaper every year. Then you can pinpoint the source of the heat, but first turn off the Fan :) Dan
Perhaps it wasn't clear enough but this is a painstaking task You have to methodically eliminate each potential source, Until you arrive at the culprit. Since the computer can still operate when that board overheats, that means the component is not shorting out the power supply As it will not be a drastic heat differential, as with any dead short. So this typically indicates that one of the output signals, as well as, one of the input signals can be shorted. That is the most common type of failure with old TTL Logic. So this will .not. create a large heat differential, as in smoke. Therefore the reason to measure the temperature of the components But this is still also a meticulous process, you need patience. Unless you have schematics, O'scope and an understanding of the operation, and know which signal to check on the scope, it can be a tedious job to uncover the problem. I'm not sure if I found the right document on your website But one showed this card has about 30 IC's on there. So with using one of the options I mentioned before, you would have to record the temperature of each part while it's running with Fan on so you know it's operating correctly. Then again without the Fan as it begins to fail. Usually there would be enough of a temperature differential, maybe only 5deg, to identify the culprit. Dan
On 12/17/2016 11:03 AM, Dan Roganti via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
On Sat, Dec 17, 2016 at 10:06 AM, william degnan via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
Related to my post yesterday, I have a SASI XEBEC 104526 rev 4 that works ok when there is a fan blowing on it but overheats after a while. It controls a SASI external hard drive used by a Visual 1050 computer. OK, I will look through the electronics and replace failing components and sure it up. Seems like the typical course of action for an XEBEC and other (SASI) external controllers. I am also thinking about the CBM 9090 and related 5-10Mb drives. 35 years in, they all seem to be failed or failing. Similar XEBEC controllers for things like IBM PC's seem to have fared better. Why? Or just a coincidence? Is there a common component that fails more often in SASI controllers but not IDE and others of the era?
I know the history of SASI/SCSI and I have some XEBEC docs. I can research further on my own, but maybe someone who actually supported these back when they were new has some casual knowledge to pass along. How reliable were these when they were new/current?
Bill
I don't have any repair history of that board, I think that's a long shot Unless you find someone who worked at XEBEC, they would have a more comprehensive view of failures. And most if not all of those components are well beyond their mtbf rating already. So that basically means, anything can go wrong. But the basic repair steps for something like this include several options One of which is using a ol' tried and true method of finding the hot component, your finger :) That's if the slot has room for you to get in there. There's other options such as using a temperature probe[thermocouple] adapter for your DMM. So you can measure the heat from each component. Also, for these tricky problems it helps to have a thermal imager - they're getting cheaper every year. Then you can pinpoint the source of the heat, but first turn off the Fan :) Dan .
Can't you use a FLIR or similar thermal camera to figure out which IC or capacitor has a partial/internal short, and replace just that one? Keep in mind that some ICs normally get hotter than others, though. -- Jonathan Gevaryahu jgevaryahu@gmail.com jgevaryahu@hotmail.com
On Sat, Dec 17, 2016 at 6:04 PM, Jonathan Gevaryahu via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
On 12/17/2016 11:03 AM, Dan Roganti via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
On Sat, Dec 17, 2016 at 10:06 AM, william degnan via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
Related to my post yesterday, I have a SASI XEBEC 104526 rev 4 that works
ok when there is a fan blowing on it but overheats after a while. It controls a SASI external hard drive used by a Visual 1050 computer. OK, I will look through the electronics and replace failing components and sure it up. Seems like the typical course of action for an XEBEC and other (SASI) external controllers. I am also thinking about the CBM 9090 and related 5-10Mb drives. 35 years in, they all seem to be failed or failing. Similar XEBEC controllers for things like IBM PC's seem to have fared better. Why? Or just a coincidence? Is there a common component that fails more often in SASI controllers but not IDE and others of the era?
I know the history of SASI/SCSI and I have some XEBEC docs. I can research further on my own, but maybe someone who actually supported these back when they were new has some casual knowledge to pass along. How reliable were these when they were new/current?
Bill
I don't have any repair history of that board, I think that's a long shot Unless you find someone who worked at XEBEC, they would have a more comprehensive view of failures. And most if not all of those components are well beyond their mtbf rating already. So that basically means, anything can go wrong. But the basic repair steps for something like this include several options One of which is using a ol' tried and true method of finding the hot component, your finger :) That's if the slot has room for you to get in there. There's other options such as using a temperature probe[thermocouple] adapter for your DMM. So you can measure the heat from each component. Also, for these tricky problems it helps to have a thermal imager - they're getting cheaper every year. Then you can pinpoint the source of the heat, but first turn off the Fan :) Dan .
Can't you use a FLIR or similar thermal camera to figure out which IC or capacitor has a partial/internal short, and replace just that one? Keep in mind that some ICs normally get hotter than others, though.
that was in my 3rd option
On Sat, 17 Dec 2016, Dan Roganti via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
On Sat, Dec 17, 2016 at 6:04 PM, Jonathan Gevaryahu via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
On 12/17/2016 11:03 AM, Dan Roganti via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
On Sat, Dec 17, 2016 at 10:06 AM, william degnan via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
Related to my post yesterday, I have a SASI XEBEC 104526 rev 4 that works
ok when there is a fan blowing on it but overheats after a while. It controls a SASI external hard drive used by a Visual 1050 computer. OK, I will look through the electronics and replace failing components and sure it up. Seems like the typical course of action for an XEBEC and other (SASI) external controllers. I am also thinking about the CBM 9090 and related 5-10Mb drives. 35 years in, they all seem to be failed or failing. Similar XEBEC controllers for things like IBM PC's seem to have fared better. Why? Or just a coincidence? Is there a common component that fails more often in SASI controllers but not IDE and others of the era?
I know the history of SASI/SCSI and I have some XEBEC docs. I can research further on my own, but maybe someone who actually supported these back when they were new has some casual knowledge to pass along. How reliable were these when they were new/current?
Bill
?I don't have any repair history of that board, I think that's a long shot Unless you find someone who worked at XEBEC, they would have a more comprehensive view of failures. And most if not all of those components are well beyond their mtbf rating already. So that basically means, anything can go wrong. But the basic repair steps for something like this include several options One of which is using a ol' tried and true method of finding the hot component, your finger :) That's if the slot has room for you to get in there. There's other options such as using a temperature probe[thermocouple] adapter for your DMM. So you can measure the heat from each component. Also, for these tricky problems it helps to have a thermal imager - they're getting cheaper every year. Then you can pinpoint the source of the heat, but first turn off the Fan :) Dan .
Can't you use a FLIR or similar thermal camera to figure out which IC or capacitor has a partial/internal short, and replace just that one? Keep in mind that some ICs normally get hotter than others, though.
?that was in my 3rd option
Don't neglect the simple resistor as the culprit in your troubleshooting. Back in the day, I used the freeze spray/heat gun method to track down a problem in the floppy controller of my TRS-80 Model 4 to a resistor whose value changed just enough when warm to make the controller fail. Mike Loewen mloewen@cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/
On Sat, Dec 17, 2016 at 6:17 PM, Mike Loewen via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
On Sat, 17 Dec 2016, Dan Roganti via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
On Sat, Dec 17, 2016 at 6:04 PM, Jonathan Gevaryahu via vcf-midatlantic <
vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
On 12/17/2016 11:03 AM, Dan Roganti via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
On Sat, Dec 17, 2016 at 10:06 AM, william degnan via vcf-midatlantic <
vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
Related to my post yesterday, I have a SASI XEBEC 104526 rev 4 that works
ok when there is a fan blowing on it but overheats after a while. It controls a SASI external hard drive used by a Visual 1050 computer. OK, I will look through the electronics and replace failing components and sure it up. Seems like the typical course of action for an XEBEC and other (SASI) external controllers. I am also thinking about the CBM 9090 and related 5-10Mb drives. 35 years in, they all seem to be failed or failing. Similar XEBEC controllers for things like IBM PC's seem to have fared better. Why? Or just a coincidence? Is there a common component that fails more often in SASI controllers but not IDE and others of the era?
I know the history of SASI/SCSI and I have some XEBEC docs. I can research further on my own, but maybe someone who actually supported these back when they were new has some casual knowledge to pass along. How reliable were these when they were new/current?
Bill
?I don't have any repair history of that board, I think that's a long shot Unless you find someone who worked at XEBEC, they would have a more comprehensive view of failures. And most if not all of those components are well beyond their mtbf rating already. So that basically means, anything can go wrong. But the basic repair steps for something like this include several options One of which is using a ol' tried and true method of finding the hot component, your finger :) That's if the slot has room for you to get in there. There's other options such as using a temperature probe[thermocouple] adapter for your DMM. So you can measure the heat from each component. Also, for these tricky problems it helps to have a thermal imager - they're getting cheaper every year. Then you can pinpoint the source of the heat, but first turn off the Fan :) Dan .
Can't you use a FLIR or similar thermal camera to figure out which IC or
capacitor has a partial/internal short, and replace just that one? Keep in mind that some ICs normally get hotter than others, though.
?that was in my 3rd option
Don't neglect the simple resistor as the culprit in your troubleshooting. Back in the day, I used the freeze spray/heat gun method to track down a problem in the floppy controller of my TRS-80 Model 4 to a resistor whose value changed just enough when warm to make the controller fail.
Naturally, I was just using the term IC's in general, but I try to mention components in general. Dan
On Sat, Dec 17, 2016 at 6:04 PM, Jonathan Gevaryahu via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
.
Can't you use a FLIR or similar thermal camera to figure out which IC or
capacitor has a partial/internal short, and replace just that one? Keep in mind that some ICs normally get hotter than others, though.
pressed send to soon my additional post from before refers to this issue about how hot IC's can get That's the reason for taking an A/B comparison When the Fan is cooling the board and working correctly so you can set a baseline for each IC. And then after without the Fan when the board fails Dan
participants (4)
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Dan Roganti -
Jonathan Gevaryahu -
Mike Loewen -
william degnan