Anyone interested, I have been working on a standardized way to put simH on things, such as the Pocket CHIP. This is useful, you can make a serial connection to this or the Raspberry Pi and attach a termina on the other end. It's a safe way to demo ancient operating systems if your actual hardware is not quite ready for a full weekend of exhibiting, or you don't have peripherals. Obvious to many but some may find it useful to get into simH. Here is 101 on what I have been doing. My Linux skills are getting better, I use it daily now whereas a few years ago I was a lot more tentative with it. http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=664
Hey thanks for doing this! The Pocket CHIP is a perfectly awesomely cheap platform to do this on too... On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 12:25 PM, william degnan via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
Anyone interested, I have been working on a standardized way to put simH on things, such as the Pocket CHIP. This is useful, you can make a serial connection to this or the Raspberry Pi and attach a termina on the other end. It's a safe way to demo ancient operating systems if your actual hardware is not quite ready for a full weekend of exhibiting, or you don't have peripherals. Obvious to many but some may find it useful to get into simH.
Here is 101 on what I have been doing. My Linux skills are getting better, I use it daily now whereas a few years ago I was a lot more tentative with it.
http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=664
On Jan 13, 2017, at 12:25 PM, william degnan via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
Anyone interested, I have been working on a standardized way to put simH on things, such as the Pocket CHIP. This is useful, you can make a serial connection to this or the Raspberry Pi and attach a termina on the other end. It's a safe way to demo ancient operating systems if your actual hardware is not quite ready for a full weekend of exhibiting, or you don't have peripherals. Obvious to many but some may find it useful to get into simH.
I'd note that the non-pocket CHIP is also quite good (in particular, I'd rather use a real keyboard) and quite a bit cheaper. A lot of the other super-cheap Allwinner-based boards (e.g. the $10 quad-core Orange Pi One) make great SimH hosts as well, as long as you run a decent distribution on them (like Armbian). Great write-up, Bill! - Dave
On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 1:17 PM, David Riley via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
On Jan 13, 2017, at 12:25 PM, william degnan via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
Anyone interested, I have been working on a standardized way to put simH
on
things, such as the Pocket CHIP. This is useful, you can make a serial connection to this or the Raspberry Pi and attach a termina on the other end. It's a safe way to demo ancient operating systems if your actual hardware is not quite ready for a full weekend of exhibiting, or you don't have peripherals. Obvious to many but some may find it useful to get into simH.
I'd note that the non-pocket CHIP is also quite good (in particular, I'd rather use a real keyboard) and quite a bit cheaper. A lot of the other super-cheap Allwinner-based boards (e.g. the $10 quad-core Orange Pi One) make great SimH hosts as well, as long as you run a decent distribution on them (like Armbian).
Great write-up, Bill!
- Dave
nice work Bill, I don't get much time to tinker with simH in recent years But this info helps even the already initiated yet encumbered people I might just have to get PiDP to stay fluid with using the simH About the Orange Pi, I'm amazed how much progress as been taken. Together with this and then the Banana Pi -- which they have a 8-core board now -- they are presenting fierce competition to the Raspberry Pi group, that is, in the hardware aspect. What the RPi group has in it's favor though is the immense documentation, and support, and then 3rd party support via their forum to promote this. You can almost say this is comparable to the TRS80/Tandy days with their high level of support. But I think since it revolves about the same OS, there's still an edge in the competition for support. Because the info is widely available on the interwebs, not just on one website as with RPi. Dan
nice work Bill, I don't get much time to tinker with simH in recent years But this info helps even the already initiated yet encumbered people I might just have to get PiDP to stay fluid with using the simH
About the Orange Pi, I'm amazed how much progress as been taken. Together with this and then the Banana Pi -- which they have a 8-core board now -- they are presenting fierce competition to the Raspberry Pi group, that is, in the hardware aspect. What the RPi group has in it's favor though is the immense documentation, and support, and then 3rd party support via their forum to promote this. You can almost say this is comparable to the TRS80/Tandy days with their high level of support. But I think since it revolves about the same OS, there's still an edge in the competition for support. Because the info is widely available on the interwebs, not just on one website as with RPi. Dan
Dan I am pretty much going to stick with Raspberry Pi and CHIPs for now. Good enough for simH and what I have been doing with them. It's getting to the point that it does not really matter to me what I use, I prefer Debian as long as I have that...but really it's all the same thing after a while. Whatever is cheapest that gets the job done. b
On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 2:40 PM, william degnan via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
nice work Bill, I don't get much time to tinker with simH in recent years But this info helps even the already initiated yet encumbered people I might just have to get PiDP to stay fluid with using the simH
About the Orange Pi, I'm amazed how much progress as been taken. Together with this and then
the
Banana Pi -- which they have a 8-core board now -- they are presenting fierce competition to the Raspberry Pi group, that is, in the hardware aspect. What the RPi group has in it's favor though is the immense documentation, and support, and then 3rd party support via their forum to promote this. You can almost say this is comparable to the TRS80/Tandy days with their high level of support. But I think since it revolves about the same OS, there's still an edge in the competition for support. Because the info is widely available on the interwebs, not just on one website as with RPi. Dan
Dan I am pretty much going to stick with Raspberry Pi and CHIPs for now. Good enough for simH and what I have been doing with them. It's getting to the point that it does not really matter to me what I use, I prefer Debian as long as I have that...but really it's all the same thing after a while. Whatever is cheapest that gets the job done.
b
oh yes, most times it doesn't matter, You can't always peddle over performance for most situations. I was kinda reflecting on the hobbyist scene The past 10yrs has been somewhat of a revival, a renaissance, with SBC's almost like the 70s with the first homebrew kits, then the 80s with the home computer version Some may recall the "Dark Times", the hobbyist scene was rather stagnant in this market. You still had the commercial and industrial suppliers for embedded SBC's, like the PC/104 But it was certainly not economical for the hobbyist. It didn't matter how cool something you made at work was great, when it came down to brass tax, unless you got that free from work, you still rather save money in the hobbyist market. But then nobody else could make it cause yours was one of a kind. The 70s and 80s paradigm where if they built more, it would get cheaper, was not really transcending to the hobbyist/SBC market, as it did with the computer kits and home computers. They actually gutted the market, look how many of those Ads are a faint memory. And in the 90s, it was the 68HC11 family and 8051 with it's derivatives While the documentation and support were very high for these, The cost effectiveness for buying their complete boards was inordinately high for the hobbyist So most times one would rather homebrew a controller first than burn a hole in their wallet. Again work doesn't count, many of us designed with these for company projects, but not the hobbyist. during the 2K yrs, some may recall the BASIC Stamp, another popular SBC with immense support, little competition, and no clone market. I switched to the Atmel 8051 derivative as it provided a economical alternative, but still homebrewed. Plus it was getting cheaper to make pcb's, so clubs could make their own line of boards. Then the Arduino led the challenge to strip the BASIC stamp from dominance. Some may say this was the beginning of this new "renaissance" in the hobbyist scene. Because this opened up the "Clone Wars" with the Arduino, not just because they had a slightly inflated value, But because it was open source, so anybody could manufacture them. All were still limited in horsepower, I recall some would resort to converting a motherboard into an embedded SBC with bare metal development using C code, all running on batteries and just a console with a myriad of interfaces stacked on it. But these new turn of events has been a resurgence. Some might say it was due to cheap labor in China to make you feel guilty. I can see their point. But the new development of the ARM processors really led the way. Much like Intel, Zilog, and Motorola did in the 70s Dan -- _ ____ / \__/ Scotty, We Need More Power !! \_/ _\__ Aye, Cap'n, but we've only got 80 col's !!
On 01/13/2017 02:09 PM, Dan Roganti via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
I don't get much time to tinker with simH in recent years But this info helps even the already initiated yet encumbered people I might just have to get PiDP to stay fluid with using the simH
The PiDP-8/i really isolates you from simh; its goal is to be more of an appliance, an as-faithful-as-possible functional reproduction of a PDP-8/i. It's just that it's simh under the covers. If you want to stay fluid with using simh, it's probably better to just install simh on a machine and run it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 6:22 PM, Dave McGuire via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
On 01/13/2017 02:09 PM, Dan Roganti via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
I don't get much time to tinker with simH in recent years But this info helps even the already initiated yet encumbered people I might just have to get PiDP to stay fluid with using the simH
The PiDP-8/i really isolates you from simh; its goal is to be more of an appliance, an as-faithful-as-possible functional reproduction of a PDP-8/i. It's just that it's simh under the covers.
If you want to stay fluid with using simh, it's probably better to just install simh on a machine and run it.
-Dave
ohh, I thought you could still use the console, so then you can attach some peripherals in simH just like on your desktop, and then you can load bigger files, For when my fingers get tired from toggling :) Dan
On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 6:45 PM, Dan Roganti <ragooman@gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 6:22 PM, Dave McGuire via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
On 01/13/2017 02:09 PM, Dan Roganti via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
I don't get much time to tinker with simH in recent years But this info helps even the already initiated yet encumbered people I might just have to get PiDP to stay fluid with using the simH
The PiDP-8/i really isolates you from simh; its goal is to be more of an appliance, an as-faithful-as-possible functional reproduction of a PDP-8/i. It's just that it's simh under the covers.
If you want to stay fluid with using simh, it's probably better to just install simh on a machine and run it.
-Dave
ohh, I thought you could still use the console, so then you can attach some peripherals in simH just like on your desktop, and then you can load bigger files, For when my fingers get tired from toggling :) Dan
I think i answered my own question I see that already has OS/8 and TSS/8 built-in they just put those commands in the *.ini file I suppose they keep the RPi running normally with a display versus a console over the tty port Dan
On 01/13/2017 06:45 PM, Dan Roganti via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 6:22 PM, Dave McGuire via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
On 01/13/2017 02:09 PM, Dan Roganti via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
I don't get much time to tinker with simH in recent years But this info helps even the already initiated yet encumbered people I might just have to get PiDP to stay fluid with using the simH
The PiDP-8/i really isolates you from simh; its goal is to be more of an appliance, an as-faithful-as-possible functional reproduction of a PDP-8/i. It's just that it's simh under the covers.
If you want to stay fluid with using simh, it's probably better to just install simh on a machine and run it.
ohh, I thought you could still use the console, so then you can attach some peripherals in simH just like on your desktop, and then you can load bigger files, For when my fingers get tired from toggling :)
You can. It's a full-blown Linux machine running a full-blown installation of simh. Simh is simh, on whatever machine it happens to be installed on. The PiDP-8/i's installation of simh just has some extensions for front panel I/O, and a set of wrappers in the form of init scripts and such to point it at different configurations based on switch settings. All I'm saying (see my other email) that if learning simh is the goal, just install simh on some random computer that you probably already have. If you want something that is a bit like a PDP-8/i, buy a PiDP-8/i. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 8:12 PM, Dave McGuire via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
All I'm saying (see my other email) that if learning simh is the goal, just install simh on some random computer that you probably already have. If you want something that is a bit like a PDP-8/i, buy a PiDP-8/i.
and everytime it's on, you get to say, DAS BLICHTEN LICHTEN !! :)
On 01/13/2017 08:59 PM, Dan Roganti via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
All I'm saying (see my other email) that if learning simh is the goal, just install simh on some random computer that you probably already have. If you want something that is a bit like a PDP-8/i, buy a PiDP-8/i.
and everytime it's on, you get to say,
DAS BLICHTEN LICHTEN !!
:)
Ab-so-LUTELY. :-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
On Jan 13, 2017 6:23 PM, "Dave McGuire via vcf-midatlantic" < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
On 01/13/2017 02:09 PM, Dan Roganti via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
I don't get much time to tinker with simH in recent years But this info helps even the already initiated yet encumbered people I might just have to get PiDP to stay fluid with using the simH
The PiDP-8/i really isolates you from simh; its goal is to be more of an appliance, an as-faithful-as-possible functional reproduction of a PDP-8/i. It's just that it's simh under the covers.
If you want to stay fluid with using simh, it's probably better to just install simh on a machine and run it.
-Dave
-- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
au contraire...My PiDP is a fully functional simH instance, basically the box with the lights is a glorified case for the computer. I have nerwokring, ext. keyboard, HDMI port if I want it. I can attach to a serial terminal to make it look legit. I can run other simH systems with it too, but the lights don't work as there is no hook for that. Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net
On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 6:47 PM, william degnan via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
au contraire...My PiDP is a fully functional simH instance, basically the box with the lights is a glorified case for the computer. I have nerwokring, ext. keyboard, HDMI port if I want it. I can attach to a serial terminal to make it look legit. I can run other simH systems with it too, but the lights don't work as there is no hook for that.
Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net
ah ok, so the console on the tty port is configured, so i can just hang a terminal on that, and that's still the command line console for the RPi while running simH, right ? Dan
On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 7:09 PM, Dan Roganti <ragooman@gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 6:47 PM, william degnan via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
au contraire...My PiDP is a fully functional simH instance, basically the box with the lights is a glorified case for the computer. I have nerwokring, ext. keyboard, HDMI port if I want it. I can attach to a serial terminal to make it look legit. I can run other simH systems with it too, but the lights don't work as there is no hook for that.
Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net
ah ok, so the console on the tty port is configured, so i can just hang a terminal on that, and that's still the command line console for the RPi while running simH, right ? Dan
oh wait, it sounds like the serial port on the RPi is strictly a console for the PiDP8 while running simH I guess you just ssh to the RPi since you have a network hooked up ?? so then you can run a command line console on your desktop I was thinking to avoid having to keep a spare monitor and keybd just for that just to access the command line console. Dan
On 01/13/2017 07:42 PM, Dan Roganti via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
oh wait, it sounds like the serial port on the RPi is strictly a console for the PiDP8 while running simH
That depends on how it's configured and how you run it.
I guess you just ssh to the RPi since you have a network hooked up ?? so then you can run a command line console on your desktop I was thinking to avoid having to keep a spare monitor and keybd just for that just to access the command line console.
You can just ssh to it. You certainly don't need a keyboard or display to be able to do anything with it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
oh wait,
it sounds like the serial port on the RPi is strictly a console for the PiDP8 while running simH I guess you just ssh to the RPi since you have a network hooked up ?? so then you can run a command line console on your desktop I was thinking to avoid having to keep a spare monitor and keybd just for that just to access the command line console. Dan
Now you got it, Dan. Yes, the serial terminal is under control of the PiDP simulator. Yes, ou can ssh into Linux and work underneath the running Simh. Especially if you are running "headless". AND you can also use the "head" HDMI/USB KBD, to use the command line or even the GUI. GUI, running along with the PiDP8 simulator, maybe runs a little slow with the single core Pi Zero. Its been a while since I did that.
On 1/13/2017 7:42 PM, Dan Roganti via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
I was thinking to avoid having to keep a spare monitor and keybd just for that just to access the command line console. Perhaps the best reason to have the monitor and keyboard on it is if you want to use that Pi as a general Pi station, that happens to also be mounted in a PiDP8 box.
On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 7:42 PM, Dan Roganti <ragooman@gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 7:09 PM, Dan Roganti <ragooman@gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 6:47 PM, william degnan via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
au contraire...My PiDP is a fully functional simH instance, basically the box with the lights is a glorified case for the computer. I have nerwokring, ext. keyboard, HDMI port if I want it. I can attach to a serial terminal to make it look legit. I can run other simH systems with it too, but the lights don't work as there is no hook for that.
Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net
ah ok, so the console on the tty port is configured, so i can just hang a terminal on that, and that's still the command line console for the RPi while running simH, right ? Dan
oh wait, it sounds like the serial port on the RPi is strictly a console for the PiDP8 while running simH I guess you just ssh to the RPi since you have a network hooked up ?? so then you can run a command line console on your desktop I was thinking to avoid having to keep a spare monitor and keybd just for that just to access the command line console. Dan
I think I answered my question again about the serial port on the RPi I see in his instructions that the same serial port, used for the PDP8 console, can also switch back to the command line, by using the simH commands to detach just as with command line terminal on a desktop, that makes sense, so then you don't need a spare monitor or usb keyboard Dan
On 01/13/2017 06:47 PM, william degnan via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
I don't get much time to tinker with simH in recent years But this info helps even the already initiated yet encumbered people I might just have to get PiDP to stay fluid with using the simH
The PiDP-8/i really isolates you from simh; its goal is to be more of an appliance, an as-faithful-as-possible functional reproduction of a PDP-8/i. It's just that it's simh under the covers.
If you want to stay fluid with using simh, it's probably better to just install simh on a machine and run it.
au contraire...My PiDP is a fully functional simH instance, basically the box with the lights is a glorified case for the computer. I have nerwokring, ext. keyboard, HDMI port if I want it. I can attach to a serial terminal to make it look legit. I can run other simH systems with it too, but the lights don't work as there is no hook for that.
Of course, and I did not suggest otherwise. It's a full simh system, and indeed a full Linux system. One can also balance one's checkbook on it if desired. But as I said above, and as I'm sure you'll agree, its as-provided simh configuration is tailored to be like an appliance, implementing a PDP-8/i. One could run a PDP-11 simulator on it, but why would you do that, when you can just install it on the machine you sit in front of? Buy a PiDP-8/i if you want a PiDP-8/i. They're great; I love mine. But if you just want to run simh and don't really want a PiDP-8/i, it's pretty dumb to shell out the money for a PiDP-8/i just to do that. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
On Jan 13, 2017, at 6:22 PM, Dave McGuire via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
If you want to stay fluid with using simh, it's probably better to just install simh on a machine and run it.
No doubt, but I think the point is that there are a lot of cheap (in many cases, $10 or less), lower-power machines on which you can run simh at better-than-real performance. I run simh on my server, but not generally continuously because it tends to take 100% CPU, which means a few tens of watts of difference (which is not huge, but still). If I want to burn some power, I'll turn on my real 11/44. :-) - Dave
On 01/14/2017 12:22 PM, David Riley via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
On Jan 13, 2017, at 6:22 PM, Dave McGuire via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
If you want to stay fluid with using simh, it's probably better to just install simh on a machine and run it.
No doubt, but I think the point is that there are a lot of cheap (in many cases, $10 or less), lower-power machines on which you can run simh at better-than-real performance. I run simh on my server, but not generally continuously because it tends to take 100% CPU, which means a few tens of watts of difference (which is not huge, but still). If I want to burn some power, I'll turn on my real 11/44. :-)
I'm right there with you on that. Now that I've gotten it reloaded after it shat all over its SD card, I'm running mine 24/7. It sits there next to my desk (currently) in the OS/8 console I/O polling loop, projecting waves of comfort toward me as I get stressed out putting out the fires caused by other peoples' incompetence. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
If you want to stay fluid with using simh, it's probably better to just install simh on a machine and run it.
No doubt, but I think the point is that there are a lot of cheap (in many cases, $10 or less), lower-power machines on which you can run simh at better-than-real performance. I run simh on my server, but not generally continuously because it tends to take 100% CPU, which means a few tens of watts of difference (which is not huge, but still). If I want to burn some power, I'll turn on my real 11/44. :-)
I'm right there with you on that. Now that I've gotten it reloaded after it shat all over its SD card, I'm running mine 24/7. It sits there next to my desk (currently) in the OS/8 console I/O polling loop, projecting waves of comfort toward me as I get stressed out putting out the fires caused by other peoples' incompetence.
I have my PiDP on the mantle above the fireplace running a slow deeper thought in 777 mode. Just finished a headless CHIP that's attached to a VT220. It's networked wirelessly, I can grab via CRON job the lpt.txt output file every 10 minutes to send "mail" from the simulator that way. Took 2 hours to MAKE them all. Posted more how to on my site
participants (7)
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Dan Roganti -
Dave McGuire -
David Riley -
Douglas Crawford -
Evan Koblentz -
John Heritage -
william degnan