In regards to the possible battery in a NeXTstation. Also, this post is appropriate to the discussion on "inventory".
Check the large Panasonic lithium battery on the [NeXT] motherboard, like a Mac II, it will not boot with a dead battery. They are still produced and available from Mouser, the Mac cubes and the slabs use the same type of battery.
Caution: the lithium batteries used in various computers to keep time-of-day running, and to retain other information (as in "Mac PRAM battery"), have good odds of *leaking* and emitting hydrogen or other gasses. The results are very, very damaging, and often not repairable. Details: Any vintage Mac collector, and some owners, have had the horror of opening their Mac and seeing several square inches of circuit-board covered in goo. And, adjacent metal surfaces covered in red rust - not just discoloration, but deep rust. Components in the vicinity, have rusted leads and through-holes on the PC boards. These are not repairable. I'm sure there's pictures on the Web of such damage. I myself, checked out several Macs recently, and found one so rusted by leakage, neither case nor motherboard was salvageable. The Mac Plus/128K/512K, has a large 4.5v battery, in a holder accessed without disassembling the case. Leaving the battery in those units, almost guarantees the battery-holder will green-rust and corrode. No battery is needed to operate these oldest Macs. Bottom line Suggestion: While the VCF Museum is doing their inventory and cataloging, it may be a good idea to inspect computers for these batteries *and remove those batteries* if not wired in. I suppose a note can be added inside the computer, to specify the kind of battery removed and where it was connected if not obvious. If it's known the computer won't start without a working battery, add that info to the note. Comment to "this is too complicated, too much work, etc." This is the cost of long-term ownership. The space and time taken by a computer, will be lost if it it self-destructs and that's not discovered until that computer is needed or accessed. Herb Johnson retrotechnology.com -- Herbert R. Johnson, New Jersey in the USA http://www.retrotechnology.com OR .net
Comment to "this is too complicated, too much work, etc." This is the cost of long-term ownership. The space and time taken by a computer, will be lost if it it self-destructs and that's not discovered until that computer is needed or accessed.
Completely agree, we'll start doing that. But yet another plea: we need more helpers.
Even if the batteries are wired in, they should still be clipped out. It's worth the trouble vs. trying to repair it later on. On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 2:12 PM, Evan Koblentz via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
Comment to "this is too complicated, too much work, etc." This is the
cost of long-term ownership. The space and time taken by a computer, will be lost if it it self-destructs and that's not discovered until that computer is needed or accessed.
Completely agree, we'll start doing that.
But yet another plea: we need more helpers.
-- Jason Perkins 313 355 0085
I have been clipping or replacing batteries, it's an an ongoing thing not something you to in a single afternoon. Maybe we could assign a shelf or a row to teams of volunteers to help defray the labor Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net On Dec 4, 2017 3:06 PM, "Jason Perkins via vcf-midatlantic" < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
Even if the batteries are wired in, they should still be clipped out. It's worth the trouble vs. trying to repair it later on.
On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 2:12 PM, Evan Koblentz via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
Comment to "this is too complicated, too much work, etc." This is the
cost of long-term ownership. The space and time taken by a computer,
will
be lost if it it self-destructs and that's not discovered until that computer is needed or accessed.
Completely agree, we'll start doing that.
But yet another plea: we need more helpers.
-- Jason Perkins 313 355 0085
A couple of suggestions: Take a photo of the battery in situ before you remove the battery. If you have no "official photographer", use your cell phone camera, and then email the photo to Evan with what the picture is of in the body of the email. This will help later when the battery is to be replaced. Extra credit: put the batteyr you removed in a zip log baggie and attach it to the computer (or put it inside) so a new battery can be purchased if the computer is ever put back in service. Bill Dudley This email is free of malware because I run Linux. On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 3:04 PM, Jason Perkins via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
Even if the batteries are wired in, they should still be clipped out. It's worth the trouble vs. trying to repair it later on.
On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 2:12 PM, Evan Koblentz via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
Comment to "this is too complicated, too much work, etc." This is the
cost of long-term ownership. The space and time taken by a computer,
will
be lost if it it self-destructs and that's not discovered until that computer is needed or accessed.
Completely agree, we'll start doing that.
But yet another plea: we need more helpers.
-- Jason Perkins 313 355 0085
I was going to suggest putting the old cell in a ziplock... then I'm reminded of when I tried something similar and the bag leaked :( On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 3:17 PM, William Dudley via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
A couple of suggestions:
Take a photo of the battery in situ before you remove the battery. If you have no "official photographer", use your cell phone camera, and then email the photo to Evan with what the picture is of in the body of the email. This will help later when the battery is to be replaced.
Extra credit: put the batteyr you removed in a zip log baggie and attach it to the computer (or put it inside) so a new battery can be purchased if the computer is ever put back in service.
Bill Dudley
This email is free of malware because I run Linux.
On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 3:04 PM, Jason Perkins via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
Even if the batteries are wired in, they should still be clipped out. It's worth the trouble vs. trying to repair it later on.
On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 2:12 PM, Evan Koblentz via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
Comment to "this is too complicated, too much work, etc." This is the
cost of long-term ownership. The space and time taken by a computer,
will
be lost if it it self-destructs and that's not discovered until that computer is needed or accessed.
Completely agree, we'll start doing that.
But yet another plea: we need more helpers.
-- Jason Perkins 313 355 0085
-- Jason Perkins 313 355 0085
I wonder if a Fuji Instax camera would be a good investment for the museum for crap like this. Then the picture can stay in the machine for posterity. --Jason On 12/04/2017 12:17 PM, William Dudley via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
A couple of suggestions:
Take a photo of the battery in situ before you remove the battery. If you have no "official photographer", use your cell phone camera, and then email the photo to Evan with what the picture is of in the body of the email. This will help later when the battery is to be replaced.
Extra credit: put the batteyr you removed in a zip log baggie and attach it to the computer (or put it inside) so a new battery can be purchased if the computer is ever put back in service.
Bill Dudley
This email is free of malware because I run Linux.
On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 3:04 PM, Jason Perkins via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
Even if the batteries are wired in, they should still be clipped out. It's worth the trouble vs. trying to repair it later on.
On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 2:12 PM, Evan Koblentz via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
Comment to "this is too complicated, too much work, etc." This is the
cost of long-term ownership. The space and time taken by a computer, will be lost if it it self-destructs and that's not discovered until that computer is needed or accessed.
Completely agree, we'll start doing that.
But yet another plea: we need more helpers.
-- Jason Perkins 313 355 0085
I'll respond briefly to be clear, to some suggestions. Keep in mind there are HUNDREDS of computers in play, which may be unfamiliar, and the person at work will NEVER see that computer again. And there's no magic "database" to put fancy data into with a swipe of your smart-phone. I used to punch-cards, so I'm kinda primitive about this stuff, sorry.
William Dudley: A couple of suggestions:
Take a photo of the battery in situ before you remove the battery. Jason Howe adds, "a Fuji Instax camera" No. Too much work, too many steps, where do you keep the JPEG photos? instant photo camera - how do you keep it stocked with film? Where do you get the lighting for a clear photo? Kerr-rrist! All this busy work!
My suggestion was to leave a note inside the computer. *Sketch* where the battery was, sketch the battery. Done, and done.
Extra credit: put the battery you removed in a zip log baggie and attach it to the computer [or elsewhere]
No, Jason Perkins said why. The battery will leak AND the bag will break. Make a sketch! You could photograph it, to LATER identify it, and TRY to update the note. That's not likely to happen, but photos may be useful later - if the photo is found later.
David Gesswein: There are other materials that also will cause damage during decay. Certain foams will do that.
True enough. Can't fix everything. (shrug) plastic bumpers melt, that acoustic foam crumbles or gets gooey. Don't get me started on conductive foam. May be a good idea to build up a checklist of such stuff. But don't go nuts - a list with lotsa items and specific instructions will get ignored. battery damage is just awful, pulling a removable battery solves the damage problem - done and done.
william degnan
Here's a good thread about rebuilding the NeXT after replacing a dead battery [link]. [also] how to back up the configuration to diskette or the network or something ..
It may be useful, to determine which computers have *serious* data maintained by backup batteries. But damage from leaking batteries, in my unhumble opinion, trumps "I can't save the configuration". Save the computer so you can update the lost data another day. Bottom line: make this remove-the-battery too complicated, and it won't happen. It's a judgement call: how many destroyed computers do you want, versus the cost of some lost data or "where does that battery go? what battery does it need?" questions. I should send some photos of really destroyed Macs to make the case graphic, but it's the holiday season and it would put us out of the festive mood. ;) I *think* a good rule of thumb would be: if you can pull out the battery, do so; leave a note about it, more detail is better. Past that, is repair and triage - but problem #2 would be to remove that black-foam stuff! Good call, that. Herb "the Leaker" Johnson -- Herbert R. Johnson, New Jersey in the USA http://www.retrotechnology.com OR .net
On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 01:54:08PM -0500, Herb Johnson via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
Caution: the lithium batteries used in various computers to keep time-of-day running, and to retain other information (as in "Mac PRAM battery"), have good odds of *leaking* and emitting hydrogen or other gasses. The results are very, very damaging, and often not repairable.
There are other materials that also will cause damgage during decay. Certain foams will do that. The black antistatic foam that was commonly used for storing IC's break down and eat the IC legs away. A HP digital scope board I have used some double sticky foam to attach plastic rails to the board. It ate the traces under it and rusted steel that was an inch or so away. I attempted to jumper the bad traces but it still won't pass self test. I have seen some plastics that when they break down also cause corrosion. Other foam will break down and loose sticky foam bits will spread and are a pain to clean after they spread but don't seem to do damage. May be good to try to keep track of what should be checked when conserving an artifact. That information would be useful to other collectors. What other stuff have people run across?
Other foam will break down and loose sticky foam bits will spread and are a pain to clean after they spread but don't seem to do damage.
May be good to try to keep track of what should be checked when conserving an artifact. That information would be useful to other collectors.
What other stuff have people run across?
I have had my battles with old duct or reinforced packing tape on external surfaces/case. Seems to burrow in there, impossible to clean off.. My personal most-despised pollutant is rodent urine, yuck. I know some of you have done a great job cleaning this, more power to you. When I get anything that's full of nests it better be really worth it to not just chuck in the trash. b Bill
participants (7)
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David Gesswein -
Evan Koblentz -
Herb Johnson -
Jason Howe -
Jason Perkins -
william degnan -
William Dudley