Not quite so linked lists (of books)
Pardon me, Adam, but I'm a little challenged by your proposal and discussion and how it's progressing. First - it's so open ended and vague. What kind of vintage computing, do you want these book-readers to be interested in, or become interested in? What do you want them to do with that interest? What is the audience, what people, do you want to reach with that interest - who are they, what experiences or age or knowledge do you expect them to have? And what's your goal, your end result, your benefit, and for whom? Remember, you aren't just some person asking for books to read. I presume you have goals for VCFed Incorporated, or the museum at Infoage, or maybe something you personally or professionally are working on. But I don't know! and, pardon me - I have decades of computing experience. There's 40 or more years of "vintage computers" around from my own life; and older computers still. Plus all kinds of uses they were used for, ways they can be used now, things people do with them. Or they make their own vintage-class computers. Or they repair the old stuff, or hot-rod 'em. For each activity, there's some kind of entry point, something one can read about and get interested. That's point one - I don't know your plans, your interests, except as you tell people why their books won't work for you. Or any other details that inform me about a list YOU want for your purposes - as you seemed to indicate. Someone suggested a book with technical content; you said it would "scare off the average person". I'm of two minds about that thought. My initial reaction, as a technical person myself, is to be rude and say "scare off average persons? *good*, weed them out early". I'm not average. Many of the people I know in vintage computing, are not "average", many of them have extraordinary skills or interests, or enthusiasms. And: are the people in those suggested books, "average"? Are they doing "average" things? NOt at the time, that's why there's a book about 'em! And is working with old computers now, an "average" kind of thing? And: If you are looking for readers, to do things or be interested in things, or at least be interesting - why target books for *average persons*? What's up with "average"? Along those lines: knowledge of Windows 10 and OS X as a kind of credential? That's essentially a license to steer a modern computer. As soon as such a person sees a command line, or a program listing, or a computer chip - do you expect them to be particularly comfortable? I find, quite frankly, I have to talk people *out of their Windows expectations* as they deal with problems with their vintage computers. What they expect, isn't what happens, isn't how they work. Finally: there's people of all kinds of ages and skills-sets, that may want to look at vintage computing in some way. A particular book, may be a point of entry - depends on that person, and the book's content and context. IF that's your goal. This "average person" thing, and what you think "vintage computing" is about, and what you want some book to accomplish for someone - that all leaves me perplexed. But of course, the museum at Infoage attracts all kinds of people who visit it. Many of them are "average" in some way - or seem that way. Maybe you are trying to do some outreach, some kind of educational thing. Or maybe you want bland-non-technical books about great heroes in technology - gripping narratives that will hold the interest of most anyone. I dunno! So I'm back to square one. If all you want is a conversation, well, be fair about that and say so. Anyone can have some favorite books for some particular reason, if they want to chat about both. And Adam, if you have real goals and intentions, and specific interests, be clear about them when asking for a list from me. Then I can decide if I have some books worth YOUR interests to read, and my interests to write about. Regards, Herb Johnson -- Herbert R. Johnson, New Jersey in the USA http://www.retrotechnology.com OR .net preserve, recover, restore 1970's computing email: hjohnson AT retrotechnology DOT com or try later herbjohnson AT retrotechnology DOT info
Hi Herb, I'm afraid I do not have good answers to your good questions. My day job is as a teacher, so I spend most of my time trying to decide how to introduce subjects to students who, by definition, lack experience in the subject. What I've learned in decades of teaching is that there really is no perfect way to introduce a subject and my way of successfully introducing a subject might be very different that another teacher's method. Such it is with any lists of books. There will never be a perfect list, but maybe I can develop at least one so-so list. To me, the best way to create such a list is to get recommendations from a wide variety of sources and have a back and forth conversation, at least to some extent, about why each person has selected their particular book and how it might introduce a subject to someone new to vintage computing and what our theoretical average person without experience might be interested in learning. Quite selfishly, I also get recommendations for books for my own personal education, but I can live with that because so does everyone else reading this list. Alas, I well appreciate that no hobby will ever agree on one single list. My list will be rudimentry and flawed, but will at least be an attempt, ever so imperfectly, to answer the question of "OK, I'm interested in vintage computing, whan can I read that will help me decide what I want to learn more about?". Guilty as charged for the sin of being vague and not only do I understand why you would choose not to participate, I think absolutely nothing less of you for doing so. Best wishes, -Adam On 9/14/2020 5:48 PM, Herb Johnson via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
Pardon me, Adam, but I'm a little challenged by your proposal and discussion and how it's progressing.
First - it's so open ended and vague. What kind of vintage computing, do you want these book-readers to be interested in, or become interested in? What do you want them to do with that interest? What is the audience, what people, do you want to reach with that interest - who are they, what experiences or age or knowledge do you expect them to have? And what's your goal, your end result, your benefit, and for whom?
Remember, you aren't just some person asking for books to read. I presume you have goals for VCFed Incorporated, or the museum at Infoage, or maybe something you personally or professionally are working on. But I don't know!
and, pardon me - I have decades of computing experience. There's 40 or more years of "vintage computers" around from my own life; and older computers still. Plus all kinds of uses they were used for, ways they can be used now, things people do with them. Or they make their own vintage-class computers. Or they repair the old stuff, or hot-rod 'em. For each activity, there's some kind of entry point, something one can read about and get interested.
That's point one - I don't know your plans, your interests, except as you tell people why their books won't work for you. Or any other details that inform me about a list YOU want for your purposes - as you seemed to indicate.
Someone suggested a book with technical content; you said it would "scare off the average person". I'm of two minds about that thought.
My initial reaction, as a technical person myself, is to be rude and say "scare off average persons? *good*, weed them out early". I'm not average. Many of the people I know in vintage computing, are not "average", many of them have extraordinary skills or interests, or enthusiasms.
And: are the people in those suggested books, "average"? Are they doing "average" things? NOt at the time, that's why there's a book about 'em! And is working with old computers now, an "average" kind of thing?
And: If you are looking for readers, to do things or be interested in things, or at least be interesting - why target books for *average persons*?
What's up with "average"?
Along those lines: knowledge of Windows 10 and OS X as a kind of credential? That's essentially a license to steer a modern computer. As soon as such a person sees a command line, or a program listing, or a computer chip - do you expect them to be particularly comfortable? I find, quite frankly, I have to talk people *out of their Windows expectations* as they deal with problems with their vintage computers. What they expect, isn't what happens, isn't how they work.
Finally: there's people of all kinds of ages and skills-sets, that may want to look at vintage computing in some way. A particular book, may be a point of entry - depends on that person, and the book's content and context. IF that's your goal.
This "average person" thing, and what you think "vintage computing" is about, and what you want some book to accomplish for someone - that all leaves me perplexed.
But of course, the museum at Infoage attracts all kinds of people who visit it. Many of them are "average" in some way - or seem that way. Maybe you are trying to do some outreach, some kind of educational thing. Or maybe you want bland-non-technical books about great heroes in technology - gripping narratives that will hold the interest of most anyone. I dunno!
So I'm back to square one.
If all you want is a conversation, well, be fair about that and say so. Anyone can have some favorite books for some particular reason, if they want to chat about both. And Adam, if you have real goals and intentions, and specific interests, be clear about them when asking for a list from me. Then I can decide if I have some books worth YOUR interests to read, and my interests to write about.
Regards, Herb Johnson
At the U of D when In taught computer history I had the students read a lot of targeted vintage magazine articles, not so many books, other than Hackers by Steven Levy. I have my library categorized as follows 1. Electronics/theory/IC catalogs 2. Digital computing theory/applications 3. Analog computing theory/applications 4. Operating systems 5. Programming Language theory 6. CPU-specific theory/ application 7. Manuals specific to one system or class 8. Programming/user guides " " " 9. Vintage books about computing "then" predicting future/cultural impact etc 10. magazines (byte, dr Dobbs) 11. Journals 12. Vintage general computing newsletters 13. Vintage hardware/ software/ manufacturer specific newsletters 14. Newspaper articles 15. Magainzes that are not normally about computing but for some reason they have a computing feature/theme 16. Artificial intelligence 17. Children's books on computers I have a lot of printed materials. I like the old magazines' "prediction" articles and books about computing history or speculation of the future written x years ago, from a past era perspective. Bill On Mon, Sep 14, 2020, 7:17 PM Adam Michlin via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
Hi Herb,
I'm afraid I do not have good answers to your good questions.
My day job is as a teacher, so I spend most of my time trying to decide how to introduce subjects to students who, by definition, lack experience in the subject. What I've learned in decades of teaching is that there really is no perfect way to introduce a subject and my way of successfully introducing a subject might be very different that another teacher's method.
Such it is with any lists of books. There will never be a perfect list, but maybe I can develop at least one so-so list. To me, the best way to create such a list is to get recommendations from a wide variety of sources and have a back and forth conversation, at least to some extent, about why each person has selected their particular book and how it might introduce a subject to someone new to vintage computing and what our theoretical average person without experience might be interested in learning. Quite selfishly, I also get recommendations for books for my own personal education, but I can live with that because so does everyone else reading this list.
Alas, I well appreciate that no hobby will ever agree on one single list. My list will be rudimentry and flawed, but will at least be an attempt, ever so imperfectly, to answer the question of "OK, I'm interested in vintage computing, whan can I read that will help me decide what I want to learn more about?".
Guilty as charged for the sin of being vague and not only do I understand why you would choose not to participate, I think absolutely nothing less of you for doing so.
Best wishes,
-Adam
On 9/14/2020 5:48 PM, Herb Johnson via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
Pardon me, Adam, but I'm a little challenged by your proposal and discussion and how it's progressing.
First - it's so open ended and vague. What kind of vintage computing, do you want these book-readers to be interested in, or become interested in? What do you want them to do with that interest? What is the audience, what people, do you want to reach with that interest - who are they, what experiences or age or knowledge do you expect them to have? And what's your goal, your end result, your benefit, and for whom?
Remember, you aren't just some person asking for books to read. I presume you have goals for VCFed Incorporated, or the museum at Infoage, or maybe something you personally or professionally are working on. But I don't know!
and, pardon me - I have decades of computing experience. There's 40 or more years of "vintage computers" around from my own life; and older computers still. Plus all kinds of uses they were used for, ways they can be used now, things people do with them. Or they make their own vintage-class computers. Or they repair the old stuff, or hot-rod 'em. For each activity, there's some kind of entry point, something one can read about and get interested.
That's point one - I don't know your plans, your interests, except as you tell people why their books won't work for you. Or any other details that inform me about a list YOU want for your purposes - as you seemed to indicate.
Someone suggested a book with technical content; you said it would "scare off the average person". I'm of two minds about that thought.
My initial reaction, as a technical person myself, is to be rude and say "scare off average persons? *good*, weed them out early". I'm not average. Many of the people I know in vintage computing, are not "average", many of them have extraordinary skills or interests, or enthusiasms.
And: are the people in those suggested books, "average"? Are they doing "average" things? NOt at the time, that's why there's a book about 'em! And is working with old computers now, an "average" kind of thing?
And: If you are looking for readers, to do things or be interested in things, or at least be interesting - why target books for *average persons*?
What's up with "average"?
Along those lines: knowledge of Windows 10 and OS X as a kind of credential? That's essentially a license to steer a modern computer. As soon as such a person sees a command line, or a program listing, or a computer chip - do you expect them to be particularly comfortable? I find, quite frankly, I have to talk people *out of their Windows expectations* as they deal with problems with their vintage computers. What they expect, isn't what happens, isn't how they work.
Finally: there's people of all kinds of ages and skills-sets, that may want to look at vintage computing in some way. A particular book, may be a point of entry - depends on that person, and the book's content and context. IF that's your goal.
This "average person" thing, and what you think "vintage computing" is about, and what you want some book to accomplish for someone - that all leaves me perplexed.
But of course, the museum at Infoage attracts all kinds of people who visit it. Many of them are "average" in some way - or seem that way. Maybe you are trying to do some outreach, some kind of educational thing. Or maybe you want bland-non-technical books about great heroes in technology - gripping narratives that will hold the interest of most anyone. I dunno!
So I'm back to square one.
If all you want is a conversation, well, be fair about that and say so. Anyone can have some favorite books for some particular reason, if they want to chat about both. And Adam, if you have real goals and intentions, and specific interests, be clear about them when asking for a list from me. Then I can decide if I have some books worth YOUR interests to read, and my interests to write about.
Regards, Herb Johnson
I understand why you would choose not to participate
Adam, I'm *already participating*, because I gave you a response - just not the one you expected. And: you *have* answered many of my questions. I won't go into detail. But thanks for being honest about what you are looking for, and modest about your results, and how others may benefit. Simply put: I wouldn't go about it in the way you are. And I can't give you the responses you are looking for, because I disagree with your assumptions and process. But: we come from different places, so that happens. I made my case, and it's your thread. If I continue, I'm hijacking your thread. So I'm out. Sorry I can't help you in your endeavor. Regards, Herb Johnson On 9/14/2020 7:16 PM, Adam Michlin wrote:
Hi Herb,
I'm afraid I do not have good answers to your good questions.
My day job is as a teacher, so I spend most of my time trying to decide how to introduce subjects to students who, by definition, lack experience in the subject. What I've learned in decades of teaching is that there really is no perfect way to introduce a subject and my way of successfully introducing a subject might be very different that another teacher's method.
Such it is with any lists of books. There will never be a perfect list, but maybe I can develop at least one so-so list. To me, the best way to create such a list is to get recommendations from a wide variety of sources and have a back and forth conversation, at least to some extent, about why each person has selected their particular book and how it might introduce a subject to someone new to vintage computing and what our theoretical average person without experience might be interested in learning. Quite selfishly, I also get recommendations for books for my own personal education, but I can live with that because so does everyone else reading this list.
Alas, I well appreciate that no hobby will ever agree on one single list. My list will be rudimentry and flawed, but will at least be an attempt, ever so imperfectly, to answer the question of "OK, I'm interested in vintage computing, whan can I read that will help me decide what I want to learn more about?".
Guilty as charged for the sin of being vague and not only do I understand why you would choose not to participate, I think absolutely nothing less of you for doing so.
Best wishes,
-Adam
-- Herbert R. Johnson, New Jersey in the USA http://www.retrotechnology.com OR .net preserve, recover, restore 1970's computing email: hjohnson AT retrotechnology DOT com or try later herbjohnson AT retrotechnology DOT info
I'm not convinced a thread is anyone's property, but I do appreciate your understanding. Perhaps I could impose on you with a more specific question. I want to learn more about 70s microcomputers, especially pre-Apple/RadioShack/Commodore and S100 machines. I like technical books and I like non-technical books. Any book suggestions to help me, specifically, learn more about that topic? I just started reading Adam Osborne's "Introduction to Microcomputers". https://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Microcomputers-Adam-Osborne/dp/B000KJXHM... But I have edition three (by dumb luck - I can't even remember how I got it) and am thinking I might perhaps be happier with the first edition from 1975 (at least in context of my above question). Thanks either way! -Adam On 9/14/2020 11:33 PM, Herb Johnson via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
I understand why you would choose not to participate
Adam, I'm *already participating*, because I gave you a response - just not the one you expected.
And: you *have* answered many of my questions. I won't go into detail. But thanks for being honest about what you are looking for, and modest about your results, and how others may benefit. Simply put: I wouldn't go about it in the way you are. And I can't give you the responses you are looking for, because I disagree with your assumptions and process. But: we come from different places, so that happens.
I made my case, and it's your thread. If I continue, I'm hijacking your thread. So I'm out. Sorry I can't help you in your endeavor.
Regards, Herb Johnson
On 9/14/2020 7:16 PM, Adam Michlin wrote:
Hi Herb,
I'm afraid I do not have good answers to your good questions.
My day job is as a teacher, so I spend most of my time trying to decide how to introduce subjects to students who, by definition, lack experience in the subject. What I've learned in decades of teaching is that there really is no perfect way to introduce a subject and my way of successfully introducing a subject might be very different that another teacher's method.
Such it is with any lists of books. There will never be a perfect list, but maybe I can develop at least one so-so list. To me, the best way to create such a list is to get recommendations from a wide variety of sources and have a back and forth conversation, at least to some extent, about why each person has selected their particular book and how it might introduce a subject to someone new to vintage computing and what our theoretical average person without experience might be interested in learning. Quite selfishly, I also get recommendations for books for my own personal education, but I can live with that because so does everyone else reading this list.
Alas, I well appreciate that no hobby will ever agree on one single list. My list will be rudimentry and flawed, but will at least be an attempt, ever so imperfectly, to answer the question of "OK, I'm interested in vintage computing, whan can I read that will help me decide what I want to learn more about?".
Guilty as charged for the sin of being vague and not only do I understand why you would choose not to participate, I think absolutely nothing less of you for doing so.
Best wishes,
-Adam
On 9/15/2020 6:39 AM, Adam Michlin wrote:
Perhaps I could impose on you with a more specific question. I want to learn more about 70s microcomputers, especially pre-Apple/RadioShack/Commodore and S100 machines. I like technical books and I like non-technical books.
1970's isn't very specific. It's like saying "that stuff before the mammals, you know, dinosaurs?" I'd not use Apple to draw a line in time; they are unique to have survived from such an early date. Better to draw the line "before Tandy, Commodore and Atari"; I'm afraid to characterize them but they are all of a kind and started near the same time, for the same reasons. Stuff like S-100, and IC developments of the later 1970's, and just more familiarity, laid the groundwork to make those later home-systems possible and viable. S-100 computers began in 1976 and were made into the 1990's as small-production systems and boards. A plausible guess is that over 200 companies made S-100 IEEE-696 boards in that era. And that was when S-100 boards sold for hundreds of dollars, sometimes several hundred; and a few thousand dollars bought *a new car*. But other things like S-100, would be SS-50 systems. Same deal, smaller scale but comparable. And then there were individual brands of bussed based systems: Ohio Scientific for instance. And: there were industrial systems also bussed: STD-Bus (Prolog) based systems, Multibus (Intel), various Motorola 6800/6809 bussed products; and then the lesser microprocessor companies' bussed products. All these bussed systems have been called retrospectively, "big boards in ugly boxes". In the fundamentals they are awfully similar. S-100 is not a bad place to take a look at some. The S-100 bus handbook – January 1, 1980 by Dave Bursky It's technical, of course. Here's a bunch of S-100 boards by MITS Altair and others in the 2nd half of the 70's. Here's how those 8080 Z80 based systems worked. Here's the schematics. Some history and names. These were bare-metal "systems" before there were systems; no OS, no file system (well, maybe cassettes), barely any languages. Not many peripherals. And no cross assemblers for most folks. Sometimes I call this era "knocking stones together to make sparks", just to annoy modern folks. If you want an early history on MITS and Processor Tech and other early S-100 actors, I imagine "Hackers" has something. Any compilation of "Dr. Dobb's Journal" for the first three years would be both a good read of people reportage, and early tool making by Paleolithic microprocessor programmers. If you want a business case on IMSAI as it became ComputerLand and was part of early computer-store development, and the hubris of such businesses in the 1980's era, read Once Upon a Time in Computerland, by Jon Littman If you want the pure heroin of S-100: read board and system manuals by Compupro (1st), Cromemco, Morrow, NorthStar. A few other brands wrote good manuals, maybe Ithaca Audio/Intersystems. "good" does not mean gripping narratives of persons dealing with conflicts. Good means, here's how the chips make the signals when driven by processor instructions driving the bus. That. is. what. it. took. to make it all happen, and to keep it happening. Four decades later, we can still make them do what they did - *that* is astonishing. But most of the chatter and discussion - and some code and hardware - was in print magazines, or in local-club newsletters, or in national club-brand newsletters. I'm saying: there were clubs around processors, or around some brand of microcomputer. Later there clubs around *software*. Some good-tech stuff and business-progress stuff, was in electrical-engineering trade magazines and in computer-programming trade magazines. A little bit was in the academic EE and CIS journals. It all started somewhere, and there was nothing before there was something (look that up). MOst microcomputer progress was from the bottom-up, not top-down. Individuals, not institutions. Sometimes ordinary people did extraordinary things, because they didn't need big resources to accomplish what was needed. A good part of early microcomputing was driven by social revolutionaries, who wanted computing power "for the people, by the people". Such was the 1970's. regards, Herb -- Herbert R. Johnson, New Jersey in the USA http://www.retrotechnology.com OR .net preserve, recover, restore 1970's computing email: hjohnson AT retrotechnology DOT com or try later herbjohnson AT retrotechnology DOT info
participants (3)
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Adam Michlin -
Bill Degnan -
Herb Johnson