Altair 8800 50th birthday...
On Thu, Apr 25, 2024, 12:34 PM William Sudbrink v wrote:
Based on what I have read, along with a few discussions I have had with people involved in the early S-100 "scene", around now is the 50th birthday (or conception day) of the Altair 8800. Certainly, next year could properly be called its 50th birthday.Anyway, I'm thinking about "painting the show blue" with Altairs and IMSAIs for the next few vintage computer festivals.
Anyone else interested? - Bill S.
On 4/25/2024 1:54 PM, Neil Cherry via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
Not a bad thing. And swtpc 6800 also 50 yrs
On 4/25/24 13:09, Bill Degnan wrote: Yea, a little love for the SWTPCs! :-D
I'm sympathetic to Bill Sudbrick, to celebrate MITS Altairs and IMSAIs. I was in EE college when I copied the Popular Electronics MITS Altair articles, to make transparencies of the PC boards layouts they published. I've supported S-100 for three decades plus. S-100 systems were produced for twenty years, hundreds of companies. So recognition of them as leaders is a good idea. But leaders of *what*? - there's some better idea to celebrate, reflect upon. Neil and Bill Degnan also have a point. The SS-50 was also a popular architecture in the era. It also led to dozen of companies' products. But why mention SS-50 and S-100 together? There's some better idea in mind that suggests why. I'm thinking this through. I'll say more on my Web site. But my short argument for the better idea, is something like this. These mid-1970's computers, were part of a new idea about computing. Standard busses, open architectures, established and open operating systems - based on then-new 8-bit microprocessors. Circuitcard-based systems expandable at the cost of a single circuit board, or the cost of a few chips on a board. Microprocessors were inside powerful chips that were a lot easier to program, cheaper to produce in volume. Hardware costs falling, and dramatically. And all this "cheaper faster better" brought millions of people into computing, using computers themselves - more productivity, falling costs. All of that is kind of a package, that started to happen about fifty years ago. We take computers and micros for granted today, like fish in water. But *little of that was true* fifty years ago. I was *there*, I know this. (But there's a counter argument, for earlier computers. That's OK! Bring it on! They all make the same case, points of progress to a result, that's my point! ;) And by the way? I and my 1970's colleagues, we won't be "here" for personal accounts on the 75th anniversary. Some of us already left the building. So don't dally on one brand a year. I think those are better ideas to have some celebrations about. Not just a blue birthday cake on one day, or a row of IMSAIs and Altairs at one event (there aren't that many kinds). That's what I'm thinking about. Thanks to Bill Sudbrink for starting the idea of using the MITS Altair 8800 50th birthday. but I'd call it a trail marker. Regards Herb Johnson -- Herbert R. Johnson, New Jersey USA https://www.retrotechnology.com OR .net preserve, recover, restore 1970's computing email: hjohnson AT retrotechnology DOT com or try later herbjohnson AT comcast DOT net
I think a good class on S100 and S50s would be a great idea if someone can do them I have read about people getting their hands on a machine and not knowing how to interface or troubleshoot it. I myself have an IMSAI and a Wameco and I don't know how to make them work. There was a great Atari class this year and a good class on getting started and troubleshooting may be of interest.
On 4/26/24 07:20, Christian Liendo via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
I think a good class on S100 and S50s would be a great idea if someone can do them
I have read about people getting their hands on a machine and not knowing how to interface or troubleshoot it. I myself have an IMSAI and a Wameco and I don't know how to make them work.
There was a great Atari class this year and a good class on getting started and troubleshooting may be of interest.
That would be a class in reverse engineering. Ex: Ian gave me a little single board computer. I recognized the processor (Motorola 6801), I can burn a ROM monitor and I know what pins to access to hook up to my laptop so I can now experiment. Once I can experiment I can figure out where the rest of the large chips (usually I/O) are with a bit of code. Of course looking things up on the internet will come into play as I'll need the pin out of various chips. Of course there are other things like power. -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry kd2zrq@linuxha.com http://www.linuxha.com/ Main site http://linuxha.blogspot.com/ My HA Blog Author of: Linux Smart Homes For Dummies KD2ZRQ
We have a number of in-house S-100 experts including Herb Johnson. We might be able to get Lee Felsenstein to talk/teach. He came out to one of our early MARCH workshops when we had a Sol-20 day. So many SOL-20's in one room. https://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=474 BIll On Fri, Apr 26, 2024 at 7:21 AM Christian Liendo via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
I think a good class on S100 and S50s would be a great idea if someone can do them
I have read about people getting their hands on a machine and not knowing how to interface or troubleshoot it. I myself have an IMSAI and a Wameco and I don't know how to make them work.
There was a great Atari class this year and a good class on getting started and troubleshooting may be of interest.
Yup. I was there and got my SOL signed. We also talked about when in 74 he first heard about the Altair. On 4/26/2024 9:03 AM, Bill Degnan via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
We have a number of in-house S-100 experts including Herb Johnson. We might be able to get Lee Felsenstein to talk/teach. He came out to one of our early MARCH workshops when we had a Sol-20 day. So many SOL-20's in one room. https://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=474 BIll
On Fri, Apr 26, 2024 at 7:21 AM Christian Liendo via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
I think a good class on S100 and S50s would be a great idea if someone can do them
I have read about people getting their hands on a machine and not knowing how to interface or troubleshoot it. I myself have an IMSAI and a Wameco and I don't know how to make them work.
There was a great Atari class this year and a good class on getting started and troubleshooting may be of interest.
-- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com
Another kind of funny story about that day. I drove Lee to the airport after the event. Bill On Fri, Apr 26, 2024 at 1:18 PM William Sudbrink via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
Yup. I was there and got my SOL signed. We also talked about when in 74 he first heard about the Altair.
On 4/26/2024 9:03 AM, Bill Degnan via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
We have a number of in-house S-100 experts including Herb Johnson. We might be able to get Lee Felsenstein to talk/teach. He came out to one of our early MARCH workshops when we had a Sol-20 day. So many SOL-20's in one room. https://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=474 BIll
On Fri, Apr 26, 2024 at 7:21 AM Christian Liendo via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
I think a good class on S100 and S50s would be a great idea if someone can do them
I have read about people getting their hands on a machine and not knowing how to interface or troubleshoot it. I myself have an IMSAI and a Wameco and I don't know how to make them work.
There was a great Atari class this year and a good class on getting started and troubleshooting may be of interest.
-- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com
I think a good class on S100 and S50s would be a great idea if someone can do them
I have read about people getting their hands on a machine and not knowing how to interface or troubleshoot it. I myself have an IMSAI and a Wameco and I don't know how to make them work.
There was a great Atari class this year and a good class on getting started and troubleshooting may be of interest.
Starting from "I bought this Altair on eBay!" would be a week-long course, assuming the individual(s) taking it had enough background for the material in the first place! There's a lot involved in getting them fully operational and *stable* and having an unstable machine is a nightmare for someone who's just getting started on S-100.
and S50s
Assuming you mean SS-50, these things aren't really related, the (usually) completely different processor architecture changes a lot of things. Thanks, Jonathan
On 4/26/24 14:33, Jonathan Chapman via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
Starting from "I bought this Altair on eBay!" would be a week-long course, assuming the individual(s) taking it had enough background for the material in the first place! There's a lot involved in getting them fully operational and *stable* and having an unstable machine is a nightmare for someone who's just getting started on S-100.
and S50s
I'd say it somewhat depends on your background. I started in the industry as an EET. Worked in a small company and learn every step of embedded systems. With the exception of things like the 4004/4040 I can look at a computer and figure it out. The 4004/4040 is strange software. The rest of various processors don't look that different to me. TTL or transistor computers are a bit harder to follow. :-) Now someone who started in software but wants to play with hardware is going to have a different view of the world. I know I've seen a lot of software folks struggle with the hardware. I'm not always good at explaining the hardware to help them understand.
Assuming you mean SS-50, these things aren't really related, the (usually) completely different processor architecture changes a lot of things.
Start with the basics, Serial (RS232, current loop, TTL 5v0/3v3) and parallel. Then work in to the logic. I will agree starting with an unstable system is not a great place to start but it will teach you how the systems work. And that's where the repair workshops come into play. -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry kd2zrq@linuxha.com http://www.linuxha.com/ Main site http://linuxha.blogspot.com/ My HA Blog Author of: Linux Smart Homes For Dummies KD2ZRQ
I think a class that started with the fundamentals of microcomputer architecture (with the examples Neil gave) would be a great start. It would be a great launching point toward understanding any early platform, as that knowledge is easily built upon. On Fri, Apr 26, 2024 at 3:00 PM Neil Cherry via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
On 4/26/24 14:33, Jonathan Chapman via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
Starting from "I bought this Altair on eBay!" would be a week-long course, assuming the individual(s) taking it had enough background for the material in the first place! There's a lot involved in getting them fully operational and *stable* and having an unstable machine is a nightmare for someone who's just getting started on S-100.
and S50s
I'd say it somewhat depends on your background. I started in the industry as an EET. Worked in a small company and learn every step of embedded systems.
With the exception of things like the 4004/4040 I can look at a computer and figure it out. The 4004/4040 is strange software. The rest of various processors don't look that different to me. TTL or transistor computers are a bit harder to follow. :-)
Now someone who started in software but wants to play with hardware is going to have a different view of the world. I know I've seen a lot of software folks struggle with the hardware. I'm not always good at explaining the hardware to help them understand.
Assuming you mean SS-50, these things aren't really related, the (usually) completely different processor architecture changes a lot of things.
Start with the basics, Serial (RS232, current loop, TTL 5v0/3v3) and parallel. Then work in to the logic.
I will agree starting with an unstable system is not a great place to start but it will teach you how the systems work. And that's where the repair workshops come into play.
-- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry kd2zrq@linuxha.com http://www.linuxha.com/ Main site http://linuxha.blogspot.com/ My HA Blog Author of: Linux Smart Homes For Dummies KD2ZRQ
FOr VCF 3 (I think) I did a class on using the front panel and explained the basics. You'd need a progression of classes so that a person can join in at their comfort level. Some would start right from the last class some would go to all classes in order, and so on On Fri, Apr 26, 2024 at 3:24 PM Dean Notarnicola via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
I think a class that started with the fundamentals of microcomputer architecture (with the examples Neil gave) would be a great start. It would be a great launching point toward understanding any early platform, as that knowledge is easily built upon.
On Fri, Apr 26, 2024 at 3:00 PM Neil Cherry via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
On 4/26/24 14:33, Jonathan Chapman via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
Starting from "I bought this Altair on eBay!" would be a week-long course, assuming the individual(s) taking it had enough background for the material in the first place! There's a lot involved in getting them fully operational and *stable* and having an unstable machine is a nightmare for someone who's just getting started on S-100.
and S50s
I'd say it somewhat depends on your background. I started in the industry as an EET. Worked in a small company and learn every step of embedded systems.
With the exception of things like the 4004/4040 I can look at a computer and figure it out. The 4004/4040 is strange software. The rest of various processors don't look that different to me. TTL or transistor computers are a bit harder to follow. :-)
Now someone who started in software but wants to play with hardware is going to have a different view of the world. I know I've seen a lot of software folks struggle with the hardware. I'm not always good at explaining the hardware to help them understand.
Assuming you mean SS-50, these things aren't really related, the (usually) completely different processor architecture changes a lot of things.
Start with the basics, Serial (RS232, current loop, TTL 5v0/3v3) and parallel. Then work in to the logic.
I will agree starting with an unstable system is not a great place to start but it will teach you how the systems work. And that's where the repair workshops come into play.
-- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry kd2zrq@linuxha.com http://www.linuxha.com/ Main site http://linuxha.blogspot.com/ My HA Blog Author of: Linux Smart Homes For Dummies KD2ZRQ
I agree with Bill. The idea I was going for was an intro as to how the machine works, basic fundamentals and operation geared towards new comers. The idea is to get people interested in these computers that were not once interested or didn't really know about them. For those who already know they have written resources and the club has repair groups for help. I don't expect people to learn everything they need to about S100s, but enough to have an idea on what to expect and gain interest. In the class you can direct to additional documentation or videos or even have another class/repair session. If this can't be done that's fine it was an idea, maybe a talk like those about collecting other computers. What to look for? Common problems. How to test and not blow up the power supply? On Fri, Apr 26, 2024, 4:08 PM Bill Degnan via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
FOr VCF 3 (I think) I did a class on using the front panel and explained the basics. You'd need a progression of classes so that a person can join in at their comfort level. Some would start right from the last class some would go to all classes in order, and so on
On Fri, Apr 26, 2024 at 3:24 PM Dean Notarnicola via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
I think a class that started with the fundamentals of microcomputer architecture (with the examples Neil gave) would be a great start. It would be a great launching point toward understanding any early platform, as that knowledge is easily built upon.
On Fri, Apr 26, 2024 at 3:00 PM Neil Cherry via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
On 4/26/24 14:33, Jonathan Chapman via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
Starting from "I bought this Altair on eBay!" would be a week-long course, assuming the individual(s) taking it had enough background for the material in the first place! There's a lot involved in getting them fully operational and *stable* and having an unstable machine is a nightmare for someone who's just getting started on S-100.
and S50s
I'd say it somewhat depends on your background. I started in the industry as an EET. Worked in a small company and learn every step of embedded systems.
With the exception of things like the 4004/4040 I can look at a computer and figure it out. The 4004/4040 is strange software. The rest of various processors don't look that different to me. TTL or transistor computers are a bit harder to follow. :-)
Now someone who started in software but wants to play with hardware is going to have a different view of the world. I know I've seen a lot of software folks struggle with the hardware. I'm not always good at explaining the hardware to help them understand.
Assuming you mean SS-50, these things aren't really related, the (usually) completely different processor architecture changes a lot of things.
Start with the basics, Serial (RS232, current loop, TTL 5v0/3v3) and parallel. Then work in to the logic.
I will agree starting with an unstable system is not a great place to start but it will teach you how the systems work. And that's where the repair workshops come into play.
-- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry kd2zrq@linuxha.com http://www.linuxha.com/ Main site http://linuxha.blogspot.com/ My HA Blog Author of: Linux Smart Homes For Dummies KD2ZRQ
I got pressed into service at the 2018 VCF when there was a last minute cancellation. I did a presentation on S-100 front panels. This was thrown together quickly after I got a call the night before. I was preparing my items for vendor sales at the fest but it came out OK (not great!) with virtually no prep. Here is a link. <https://youtu.be/W27BbDoBIgw?si=jzkQOCaEb6P4XI-k> Regards, Jeff On Sun, Apr 28, 2024 at 12:58 PM Christian Liendo via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
I agree with Bill. The idea I was going for was an intro as to how the machine works, basic fundamentals and operation geared towards new comers. The idea is to get people interested in these computers that were not once interested or didn't really know about them.
For those who already know they have written resources and the club has repair groups for help. I don't expect people to learn everything they need to about S100s, but enough to have an idea on what to expect and gain interest. In the class you can direct to additional documentation or videos or even have another class/repair session.
If this can't be done that's fine it was an idea, maybe a talk like those about collecting other computers. What to look for? Common problems. How to test and not blow up the power supply?
That is a great video, thank you for sharing.. On Sun, Apr 28, 2024, 4:52 PM Jeff Galinat via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
I got pressed into service at the 2018 VCF when there was a last minute cancellation. I did a presentation on S-100 front panels. This was thrown together quickly after I got a call the night before. I was preparing my items for vendor sales at the fest but it came out OK (not great!) with virtually no prep. Here is a link.
<https://youtu.be/W27BbDoBIgw?si=jzkQOCaEb6P4XI-k>
Regards, Jeff
On Sun, Apr 28, 2024 at 12:58 PM Christian Liendo via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
I agree with Bill. The idea I was going for was an intro as to how the machine works, basic fundamentals and operation geared towards new comers. The idea is to get people interested in these computers that were not once interested or didn't really know about them.
For those who already know they have written resources and the club has repair groups for help. I don't expect people to learn everything they need to about S100s, but enough to have an idea on what to expect and gain interest. In the class you can direct to additional documentation or videos or even have another class/repair session.
If this can't be done that's fine it was an idea, maybe a talk like those about collecting other computers. What to look for? Common problems. How to test and not blow up the power supply?
participants (8)
-
Bill Degnan -
Christian Liendo -
Dean Notarnicola -
Herbert Johnson -
Jeff Galinat -
Jonathan Chapman -
Neil Cherry -
William Sudbrink