Bernoulli Drives needed in working condition
Someone donated two 10x10 Bernoulli drives to VCF. They are in unknown condition. She gave us the manual, a cable and one cartridge. She wants to donate the remaining cartridges, but would like to supervise the deletion of the data they have on them. So we need one in working condition first. As I understand it, the drives need a special card on an "older" PC to operate. She disposed of the PC that had that card. Is there anyone who has this card and can get these drives in working order so that the lady can delete her data? ========================================= Jeff Brace Vice President & Board Member Vintage Computer Festival East Show-runner Vintage Computer Federation is a 501c3 charity http://www.vcfed.org/ jeffrey@vcfed.org
Bernoulli disks are magnetic media, no? Wouldn't a bulk tape eraser be a more secure means of erasing these cartridges? Bruce NJ On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 10:04 AM Jeffrey Brace via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
Someone donated two 10x10 Bernoulli drives to VCF. They are in unknown condition. She gave us the manual, a cable and one cartridge. She wants to donate the remaining cartridges, but would like to supervise the deletion of the data they have on them. So we need one in working condition first.
As I understand it, the drives need a special card on an "older" PC to operate. She disposed of the PC that had that card.
Is there anyone who has this card and can get these drives in working order so that the lady can delete her data?
========================================= Jeff Brace Vice President & Board Member Vintage Computer Festival East Show-runner Vintage Computer Federation is a 501c3 charity http://www.vcfed.org/ jeffrey@vcfed.org
If I remember correctly, Bernoulli cartridges are factory low-level formatted and cannot be reformatted in the field. If this is the case, bulk erasing them will render them useless. Don't just assume that this is a good approach. -Dave On 5/18/21 10:29 AM, Bruce via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
Bernoulli disks are magnetic media, no? Wouldn't a bulk tape eraser be a more secure means of erasing these cartridges? Bruce NJ
On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 10:04 AM Jeffrey Brace via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
Someone donated two 10x10 Bernoulli drives to VCF. They are in unknown condition. She gave us the manual, a cable and one cartridge. She wants to donate the remaining cartridges, but would like to supervise the deletion of the data they have on them. So we need one in working condition first.
As I understand it, the drives need a special card on an "older" PC to operate. She disposed of the PC that had that card.
Is there anyone who has this card and can get these drives in working order so that the lady can delete her data?
========================================= Jeff Brace Vice President & Board Member Vintage Computer Festival East Show-runner Vintage Computer Federation is a 501c3 charity http://www.vcfed.org/ jeffrey@vcfed.org
-- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
If data security is a concern, but we want to retain the media, then a three-pass overwrite with varying bit patterns may be the only viable option, as formatting may not clear the sectors. Of course, the only foolproof way to make sure the data is unrecoverable is to destroy the media. On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 10:32 AM Dave McGuire via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
If I remember correctly, Bernoulli cartridges are factory low-level formatted and cannot be reformatted in the field. If this is the case, bulk erasing them will render them useless. Don't just assume that this is a good approach.
-Dave
On 5/18/21 10:29 AM, Bruce via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
Bernoulli disks are magnetic media, no? Wouldn't a bulk tape eraser be a more secure means of erasing these cartridges? Bruce NJ
On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 10:04 AM Jeffrey Brace via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
Someone donated two 10x10 Bernoulli drives to VCF. They are in unknown condition. She gave us the manual, a cable and one cartridge. She wants to donate the remaining cartridges, but would like to supervise the deletion of the data they have on them. So we need one in working condition first.
As I understand it, the drives need a special card on an "older" PC to operate. She disposed of the PC that had that card.
Is there anyone who has this card and can get these drives in working order so that the lady can delete her data?
========================================= Jeff Brace Vice President & Board Member Vintage Computer Festival East Show-runner Vintage Computer Federation is a 501c3 charity http://www.vcfed.org/ jeffrey@vcfed.org
-- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
If data security is a concern, but we want to retain the media, then a three-pass overwrite with varying bit patterns may be the only viable option, as formatting may not clear the sectors. Of course, the only foolproof way to make sure the data is unrecoverable is to destroy the media.
I think there have been bounties out there for a while for anyone to recover data after a one pass wipe of a hard drive... and it's been unclaimed. My understanding is when you look below the "current data" there is supposedly a lot of noise and making out the prior data is very difficult. - Ethan
Agreed, and if it was for myself I’d most likely be happy. But I’d like to give a potential donor some confidence by using an agreed-to NCSC/NSA standard. On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 10:43 AM Ethan O'Toole via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
If data security is a concern, but we want to retain the media, then a three-pass overwrite with varying bit patterns may be the only viable option, as formatting may not clear the sectors. Of course, the only foolproof way to make sure the data is unrecoverable is to destroy the media.
I think there have been bounties out there for a while for anyone to recover data after a one pass wipe of a hard drive... and it's been unclaimed.
My understanding is when you look below the "current data" there is supposedly a lot of noise and making out the prior data is very difficult.
- Ethan
On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 10:39 AM Dean Notarnicola via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
If data security is a concern, but we want to retain the media, then a three-pass overwrite with varying bit patterns may be the only viable option, as formatting may not clear the sectors. Of course, the only foolproof way to make sure the data is unrecoverable is to destroy the media.
Unless someone p[lans to employ NSA-grade electron-microscope track-edge detection on the media, overwriting it with zeros even once is very secure. Yes, you _can_ get edge bits and weak bits and all of that, but who is going to go to that much effort? Triple-wipe is plenty good enough for anything short of state secrets. -ethan
On 5/18/21 10:49 AM, Ethan Dicks via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
Yes, you _can_ get edge bits and weak bits and all of that, but who is going to go to that much effort?
A lot of this (ok, ALL of this) is a psychological issue. Most people and organizations have a dramatically inflated opinion of the value of their data. The reality is that nobody really cares, in the vast majority of cases. LSSM has a boilerplate data protection/destruction contract (i.e., protect until we can destroy) that we've used to assuage the concerns of these types of people. It has satisfied the donor in the dozen or so times it has been used. One was a payroll company with live data on drives, and it was reviewed by their legal department. The contract is pretty simple, but I can send it over to VCF folks if it would be useful. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
It’s important to realize that when I was introduced to Bernoulli’s in ’92 they were already outdated. What could this data possible be and who is a alive that would care...
On May 18, 2021, at 10:54 AM, Dave McGuire via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
On 5/18/21 10:49 AM, Ethan Dicks via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
Yes, you _can_ get edge bits and weak bits and all of that, but who is going to go to that much effort?
A lot of this (ok, ALL of this) is a psychological issue. Most people and organizations have a dramatically inflated opinion of the value of their data. The reality is that nobody really cares, in the vast majority of cases.
LSSM has a boilerplate data protection/destruction contract (i.e., protect until we can destroy) that we've used to assuage the concerns of these types of people. It has satisfied the donor in the dozen or so times it has been used.
One was a payroll company with live data on drives, and it was reviewed by their legal department.
The contract is pretty simple, but I can send it over to VCF folks if it would be useful.
-Dave
-- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
I’d like to take a look at it. It’s not just about giving the donor a “warm fuzzy “, it’s also about avoiding potential liability if VCF is agreeing to delete the data. On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 10:54 AM Dave McGuire via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
On 5/18/21 10:49 AM, Ethan Dicks via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
Yes, you _can_ get edge bits and weak bits and all of that, but who is going to go to that much effort?
A lot of this (ok, ALL of this) is a psychological issue. Most people and organizations have a dramatically inflated opinion of the value of their data. The reality is that nobody really cares, in the vast majority of cases.
LSSM has a boilerplate data protection/destruction contract (i.e., protect until we can destroy) that we've used to assuage the concerns of these types of people. It has satisfied the donor in the dozen or so times it has been used.
One was a payroll company with live data on drives, and it was reviewed by their legal department.
The contract is pretty simple, but I can send it over to VCF folks if it would be useful.
-Dave
-- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 10:30 AM Bruce via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
Bernoulli disks are magnetic media, no? Wouldn't a bulk tape eraser be a more secure means of erasing these cartridges?
For some reason she wants to review the data. Perhaps she might want to save some of it? In any case, it seems that it is better to look through what is there and erase the files instead of doing a bulk type eraser. As Dave pointed out this may make them useless.
Bruce NJ
On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 10:04 AM Jeffrey Brace via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
Someone donated two 10x10 Bernoulli drives to VCF. They are in unknown condition. She gave us the manual, a cable and one cartridge. She wants to donate the remaining cartridges, but would like to supervise the deletion of the data they have on them. So we need one in working condition first.
As I understand it, the drives need a special card on an "older" PC to operate. She disposed of the PC that had that card.
Is there anyone who has this card and can get these drives in working order so that the lady can delete her data?
========================================= Jeff Brace Vice President & Board Member Vintage Computer Festival East Show-runner Vintage Computer Federation is a 501c3 charity http://www.vcfed.org/ jeffrey@vcfed.org
On 5/18/21 10:50 AM, Jeffrey Brace via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
For some reason she wants to review the data. Perhaps she might want to save some of it? In any case, it seems that it is better to look through what is there and erase the files instead of doing a bulk type eraser. As Dave pointed out this may make them useless.
ISA Bernoulli controllers are pretty common. I'm sure I have a few but I don't know that I could find them quickly enough to be useful here. But they hit eBay with some frequency. You'll need the DOS driver for that board too. This is assuming it was used on an x86 box. These were very popular back in the day; this stuff should be pretty easy to find. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 10:56 AM Dave McGuire via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
On 5/18/21 10:50 AM, Jeffrey Brace via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
For some reason she wants to review the data. Perhaps she might want to save some of it? In any case, it seems that it is better to look through what is there and erase the files instead of doing a bulk type eraser. As Dave pointed out this may make them useless.
ISA Bernoulli controllers are pretty common. I'm sure I have a few but I don't know that I could find them quickly enough to be useful here. But they hit eBay with some frequency. You'll need the DOS driver for that board too.
Yes. We have the floppy with the driver, but don't know if it is readable. I assume that we could find the driver somewhere on the internet. It's good to know that ISA Bernoulli controllers are common.
This is assuming it was used on an x86 box.
These were very popular back in the day; this stuff should be pretty easy to find.
OK. Thanks. Now we just need a proper machine for it all.
-Dave
-- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
I have a SCSI Bernoulli 150 that I use Macs and Atari STs. If that would help the cause I’d be happy to lend that out.
On May 18, 2021, at 11:00 AM, Jeffrey Brace via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 10:56 AM Dave McGuire via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
On 5/18/21 10:50 AM, Jeffrey Brace via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
For some reason she wants to review the data. Perhaps she might want to save some of it? In any case, it seems that it is better to look through what is there and erase the files instead of doing a bulk type eraser. As Dave pointed out this may make them useless.
ISA Bernoulli controllers are pretty common. I'm sure I have a few but I don't know that I could find them quickly enough to be useful here. But they hit eBay with some frequency. You'll need the DOS driver for that board too.
Yes. We have the floppy with the driver, but don't know if it is readable. I assume that we could find the driver somewhere on the internet. It's good to know that ISA Bernoulli controllers are common.
This is assuming it was used on an x86 box.
These were very popular back in the day; this stuff should be pretty easy to find.
OK. Thanks. Now we just need a proper machine for it all.
-Dave
-- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
On 5/18/21 11:00 AM, Jeffrey Brace wrote:
ISA Bernoulli controllers are pretty common. I'm sure I have a few but I don't know that I could find them quickly enough to be useful here. But they hit eBay with some frequency. You'll need the DOS driver for that board too.
Yes. We have the floppy with the driver, but don't know if it is readable. I assume that we could find the driver somewhere on the internet. It's good to know that ISA Bernoulli controllers are common.
I'm sure that driver is floating around somewhere, but it would probably be good to try to read that floppy on general principle, just in case. (i.e., we shouldn't just assume something has been preserved, you may be holding the last known copy of it!) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
The donation came with the original documentation and driver disk for the card. It just didn't have the ISA card. If we can find the same card on eBay, then we should be good with the driver. It's also unknown if the driver disk is readable. Should be trivial to fire up the IBM PC in the museum and do a DIR to assess its contents in the meantime. On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 10:57 AM Dave McGuire via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
ISA Bernoulli controllers are pretty common. I'm sure I have a few but I don't know that I could find them quickly enough to be useful here. But they hit eBay with some frequency. You'll need the DOS driver for that board too.
Again if memory serves, and I'm pretty sure it does in this case, the three or four different ISA controller cards with DC37 connectors are interchangeable, i.e. the on-disk format is not dependent upon which card you use. -Dave On 5/18/21 11:02 AM, Jeff Salzman via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
The donation came with the original documentation and driver disk for the card. It just didn't have the ISA card. If we can find the same card on eBay, then we should be good with the driver. It's also unknown if the driver disk is readable. Should be trivial to fire up the IBM PC in the museum and do a DIR to assess its contents in the meantime.
On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 10:57 AM Dave McGuire via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
ISA Bernoulli controllers are pretty common. I'm sure I have a few but I don't know that I could find them quickly enough to be useful here. But they hit eBay with some frequency. You'll need the DOS driver for that board too.
-- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
For some reason she wants to review the data. Perhaps she might want to save some of it? In any case, it seems that it is better to look through what is there and erase the files instead of doing a bulk type eraser. As Dave pointed out this may make them useless.
Makes sense. Yea, don't bulk erase em. Same with a lot of the tape media like LTO. There are a number of Bernoulli cards on feeBay. I remember the drives, but when I used them they were 44mb and SCSI as I recall. https://www.ebay.com/itm/124405462633 Looks like a DB-37 cable is used as well. Also, some of the boards on eBay have an EPROM (boot?), some don't. Some are missing a bunch of chips including what might be a pal/gal. Lots of different versions but most seem to have DB-37. - Ethan
On 5/18/21 10:57 AM, Ethan O'Toole via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
There are a number of Bernoulli cards on feeBay. I remember the drives, but when I used them they were 44mb and SCSI as I recall.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/124405462633 Looks like a DB-37 cable is used as well.
Also, some of the boards on eBay have an EPROM (boot?), some don't. Some are missing a bunch of chips including what might be a pal/gal.
Lots of different versions but most seem to have DB-37.
Those are the earlier ones, 8" disks 10MB and 20MB. Looking at that board on eBay the memories are starting to come back. ;) There are a few different interfaces; the one you referenced above is the better one, with some buffering. Any of them should work I think. I remember that I used several different models on the 8" drives over the years. Incidentally, I currently use a pair of 44MB SCSI Bernoulli drives on my personal PDP-11/34 (here at home, not at LSSM) interfaced via a Unibus SCSI host adapter. I run RT-11, RSTS/E, and RSX-11M that way. Works a treat, and it's very handy for healing the soul when something stresses me out. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
Those are the earlier ones, 8" disks 10MB and 20MB. Looking at that board on eBay the memories are starting to come back. ;) There are a few different interfaces; the one you referenced above is the better one, with some buffering. Any of them should work I think. I remember that I used several different models on the 8" drives over the years.
Ah I never saw the 8" ones, jsut the ones that were probably like 5.25" or so.
Incidentally, I currently use a pair of 44MB SCSI Bernoulli drives on my personal PDP-11/34 (here at home, not at LSSM) interfaced via a Unibus SCSI host adapter. I run RT-11, RSTS/E, and RSX-11M that way. Works a treat, and it's very handy for healing the soul when something stresses me out.
Awesome! The 44Mb (and maybe 88Mb?) ones I dealt with were as a young lad working at a government contractor on a Navy base. The command there used them for the secure messaging computers. They would toss the classified ones in the safe and have me fix the unclass one, write down what I did then do the same on the classified ones. When I was young DOS kid I always thought the removable cart "hard drives" seemed better than a normal hard drive because ou could expand it. Didn't know about access times. Later had a zip drive, they were cool. I still have a few Zip drives and a Jaz drive somewhere, freebs picked up along the way years later. I did have a SCSI 100Mb zip in a music sampler box that click of deathed on me when I needed it the most. Young and dumber (maybe) I had sampled a few clips from the movie "Contact" of the little girl saying like "CQ CQ this is blablabal" and what not. On the EMU sampler you didn't need midi device to drive it, there was 10 number buttons on the front you could assign it to. So I assigned these girl-on-the-ham-radio samples to the buttons, threw it in the car with something programmed to xmit on the hamfest repeater freq and an inverter... with the idea I would toy with the hamfest hams and give them some excitement. Arrive to the Virginia Beach hamfest and sure enough the zip drive click of deaths on me. It was never ment to be.
On 5/18/21 11:16 AM, Ethan O'Toole wrote:
Those are the earlier ones, 8" disks 10MB and 20MB. Looking at that board on eBay the memories are starting to come back. ;) There are a few different interfaces; the one you referenced above is the better one, with some buffering. Any of them should work I think. I remember that I used several different models on the 8" drives over the years.
Ah I never saw the 8" ones, jsut the ones that were probably like 5.25" or so.
"More of the same", except the cartridges were rectangular. They came in 10MB and 20MB varieties. They worked great, and were surprisingly reliable.
Incidentally, I currently use a pair of 44MB SCSI Bernoulli drives on my personal PDP-11/34 (here at home, not at LSSM) interfaced via a Unibus SCSI host adapter. I run RT-11, RSTS/E, and RSX-11M that way. Works a treat, and it's very handy for healing the soul when something stresses me out.
Awesome! The 44Mb (and maybe 88Mb?) ones I dealt with were as a young lad working at a government contractor on a Navy base. The command there used them for the secure messaging computers. They would toss the classified ones in the safe and have me fix the unclass one, write down what I did then do the same on the classified ones.
Neat! At work we had a few 20MB 8" drives, and a rather vast number (hundreds) of 44MB 5.25" drives, all over the place. The FSO had shelves in the vault that held nothing but 5.25" Bernoulli disks...thousands of them.
When I was young DOS kid I always thought the removable cart "hard drives" seemed better than a normal hard drive because ou could expand it. Didn't know about access times. Later had a zip drive, they were cool.
Very cool.
I still have a few Zip drives and a Jaz drive somewhere, freebs picked up along the way years later.
Great stuff, those Zip drives. The Jaz drives are garbage. I never had any, but all of my friends did, and they all hated them.
I did have a SCSI 100Mb zip in a music sampler box that click of deathed on me when I needed it the most.
I must be the only heavy use of Zip disks that never had that happen. With over a dozen drives at one point, and hundreds of disks. On Macs, PeeCees, PDP-11s...I've had a few disks that never worked (formatting errors) but, by and large, if they worked, they worked forever. And the only time I ever lost a drive is when it got rained on.
Young and dumber (maybe) I had sampled a few clips from the movie "Contact" of the little girl saying like "CQ CQ this is blablabal" and what not. On the EMU sampler you didn't need midi device to drive it, there was 10 number buttons on the front you could assign it to. So I assigned these girl-on-the-ham-radio samples to the buttons, threw it in the car with something programmed to xmit on the hamfest repeater freq and an inverter... with the idea I would toy with the hamfest hams and give them some excitement. Arrive to the Virginia Beach hamfest and sure enough the zip drive click of deaths on me. It was never ment to be.
Probably because it knew you were trying to mess with people. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
These work normally in any Classic Mac with a SCSI connector. Jeff I set one up in the Hotel for just this type of thing. -andy
On May 18, 2021, at 10:03 AM, Jeffrey Brace via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
Someone donated two 10x10 Bernoulli drives to VCF. They are in unknown condition. She gave us the manual, a cable and one cartridge. She wants to donate the remaining cartridges, but would like to supervise the deletion of the data they have on them. So we need one in working condition first.
As I understand it, the drives need a special card on an "older" PC to operate. She disposed of the PC that had that card.
Is there anyone who has this card and can get these drives in working order so that the lady can delete her data?
========================================= Jeff Brace Vice President & Board Member Vintage Computer Festival East Show-runner Vintage Computer Federation is a 501c3 charity http://www.vcfed.org/ jeffrey@vcfed.org
I thought the OP was talking about 8" Bernoullis. Their proprietary interface is, as I understand it, a derivative of SCSI, but it's not directly compatible with SCSI. -Dave On 5/18/21 12:45 PM, Andrew Diller via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
These work normally in any Classic Mac with a SCSI connector. Jeff I set one up in the Hotel for just this type of thing.
-andy
On May 18, 2021, at 10:03 AM, Jeffrey Brace via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
Someone donated two 10x10 Bernoulli drives to VCF. They are in unknown condition. She gave us the manual, a cable and one cartridge. She wants to donate the remaining cartridges, but would like to supervise the deletion of the data they have on them. So we need one in working condition first.
As I understand it, the drives need a special card on an "older" PC to operate. She disposed of the PC that had that card.
Is there anyone who has this card and can get these drives in working order so that the lady can delete her data?
========================================= Jeff Brace Vice President & Board Member Vintage Computer Festival East Show-runner Vintage Computer Federation is a 501c3 charity http://www.vcfed.org/ jeffrey@vcfed.org
-- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
I agree, I thought they were the 44/88 drives popular in mid '90s. -andy
On May 18, 2021, at 12:48 PM, Dave McGuire via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
I thought the OP was talking about 8" Bernoullis. Their proprietary interface is, as I understand it, a derivative of SCSI, but it's not directly compatible with SCSI.
-Dave
On 5/18/21 12:45 PM, Andrew Diller via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
These work normally in any Classic Mac with a SCSI connector. Jeff I set one up in the Hotel for just this type of thing.
-andy
On May 18, 2021, at 10:03 AM, Jeffrey Brace via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
Someone donated two 10x10 Bernoulli drives to VCF. They are in unknown condition. She gave us the manual, a cable and one cartridge. She wants to donate the remaining cartridges, but would like to supervise the deletion of the data they have on them. So we need one in working condition first.
As I understand it, the drives need a special card on an "older" PC to operate. She disposed of the PC that had that card.
Is there anyone who has this card and can get these drives in working order so that the lady can delete her data?
========================================= Jeff Brace Vice President & Board Member Vintage Computer Festival East Show-runner Vintage Computer Federation is a 501c3 charity http://www.vcfed.org/ jeffrey@vcfed.org
-- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
participants (11)
-
Andrew Diller -
Ben Greenfield -
Bruce -
Dave McGuire -
Dean Notarnicola -
Dean Notarnicola -
Ethan Dicks -
Ethan O'Toole -
Jeffrey Brace -
jsalzman＠gmail.com -
Peter Fletcher