Ideas for VCF 2023 t-shirts
I'm starting the process for ideas and a design for this year's t-shirt. If anyone has any ideas that they want to throw to us, then please do so by replying to this email either publicly or privately. Keep in mind that we may not use your idea, so don't feel disappointed if we choose another. One t-shirt that was really popular was the "dragon" t-shirt which had the IBM 5150 running Adventure and a dragon on the side. Perhaps a similar iconic creature would be popular with people. Thanks! ========================================= Jeff Brace VCF National Board Member Chairman & Vice President Vintage Computer Festival East Showrunner Vintage Computer Federation is a 501c3 charity https://vcfed.org/ <http://www.vcfed.org/> jeffrey@vcfed.org
It's 40 years of War Games So maybe something War Games themed? On Thu, Jan 26, 2023, 7:09 PM Jeffrey Brace via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
I'm starting the process for ideas and a design for this year's t-shirt. If anyone has any ideas that they want to throw to us, then please do so by replying to this email either publicly or privately.
Keep in mind that we may not use your idea, so don't feel disappointed if we choose another.
One t-shirt that was really popular was the "dragon" t-shirt which had the IBM 5150 running Adventure and a dragon on the side. Perhaps a similar iconic creature would be popular with people.
Thanks!
========================================= Jeff Brace VCF National Board Member Chairman & Vice President Vintage Computer Festival East Showrunner Vintage Computer Federation is a 501c3 charity https://vcfed.org/ <http://www.vcfed.org/> jeffrey@vcfed.org
A shirt that is a working circuit actual schematic would be kind of cool. Obviously it would have to be something simply, but maybe a 4004 chip or 6502 chip Bill On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 7:08 PM Jeffrey Brace via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
I'm starting the process for ideas and a design for this year's t-shirt. If anyone has any ideas that they want to throw to us, then please do so by replying to this email either publicly or privately.
Keep in mind that we may not use your idea, so don't feel disappointed if we choose another.
One t-shirt that was really popular was the "dragon" t-shirt which had the IBM 5150 running Adventure and a dragon on the side. Perhaps a similar iconic creature would be popular with people.
Thanks!
========================================= Jeff Brace VCF National Board Member Chairman & Vice President Vintage Computer Festival East Showrunner Vintage Computer Federation is a 501c3 charity https://vcfed.org/ <http://www.vcfed.org/> jeffrey@vcfed.org
One working circuit idea: I just was researching the TI ALU that some mini computers used prior to microprocesses, 74S181. It was pretty influential. The logic diagram could work as a graphic to wear: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/The-logic-diagram-of-the-74LS181-ALU-IC_... However, I like the war games theme a lot, and probably is easier to make a catchy shirt from. Or continue the education theme and mashup some subjects like Oregon trail, LOGO, PLATO. On 1/26/2023 8:33 PM, Bill Degnan via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
A shirt that is a working circuit actual schematic would be kind of cool. Obviously it would have to be something simply, but maybe a 4004 chip or 6502 chip Bill
On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 7:08 PM Jeffrey Brace via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
I'm starting the process for ideas and a design for this year's t-shirt. If anyone has any ideas that they want to throw to us, then please do so by replying to this email either publicly or privately.
Keep in mind that we may not use your idea, so don't feel disappointed if we choose another.
One t-shirt that was really popular was the "dragon" t-shirt which had the IBM 5150 running Adventure and a dragon on the side. Perhaps a similar iconic creature would be popular with people.
Thanks!
========================================= Jeff Brace VCF National Board Member Chairman & Vice President Vintage Computer Festival East Showrunner Vintage Computer Federation is a 501c3 charity https://vcfed.org/ <http://www.vcfed.org/> jeffrey@vcfed.org
On 1/27/23 21:20, Douglas Crawford via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
One working circuit idea: I just was researching the TI ALU that some mini computers used prior to microprocesses, 74S181. It was pretty influential. The logic diagram could work as a graphic to wear: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/The-logic-diagram-of-the-74LS181-ALU-IC_...
74181, a great chip. There's a column of four of them in most of the earlier PDP-11 processors. The earlier DG Nova processors use a single one, making four passes through it for 16 bits. Ken Shirriff did a very nice blog post about the venerable '181. It's worth a read. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
I kinda like WarGames themed. Have a WOPR ( Will Operate Retro) on a computer of choice. A few chess pieces on the screen? Put tic-tac-toe over a nuclear mushroom cloud or something. Ok just putting it out there. Thank you -Ryan
On 1/27/2023 9:49 PM, Dave McGuire via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
On 1/27/23 21:20, Douglas Crawford via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
One working circuit idea: I just was researching the TI ALU that some mini computers used prior to microprocesses, 74S181. It was pretty influential. The logic diagram could work as a graphic to wear: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/The-logic-diagram-of-the-74LS181-ALU-IC_...
74181, a great chip. There's a column of four of them in most of the earlier PDP-11 processors. The earlier DG Nova processors use a single one, making four passes through it for 16 bits.
Ken Shirriff did a very nice blog post about the venerable '181. It's worth a read.
-Dave
K.S. '181 Blog: https://www.righto.com/2017/03/
The 74S181 is a remarkable chip in computing history, but I feel it may be too esoteric on a t-shirt if we were make it the theme of the t-shirt. If the schematic was used as a generic graphic, along with a VCF slogan or something, people might easily understand it as "something about computing." If we called it what it is on the shirt, it'll probably generate questions like, "why this?", As opposed to the more common, "What is this?" Questions from the public are good, but questions from a confused public are not as good. Unless we have exhibits or a show theme about the historical significance of the 74S181, then it's schematic graphic wouldn't work as a t-shirt graphic focused on the chip itself. It might actually hurt t-shirt sales. If you showed one of our average visitors a labeled picture of the 74S181 and an IBM PC, and asked them which one they would buy as a t-shirt, what do you believe they will choose? Think of it like this... why did we put a Commodore 64 graphic on a t-shirt before, instead of a schematic or block diagram of its VIC-II chip? The latter is a significant chip in computing history, but people will more readily recognize a computer more than a specific chip. I first wasn't wholly set on suggesting an IBM PC as the t-shirt graphic, but good points and arguments were made in this thread about doing so. Either way, the t-shirt graphic should be something more readily recognized by a passing viewer AND be historically significant this year. In lieu of any other ideas, the IBM PC would be a better choice in my opinion. The 74S181 sure would be a great exhibit of historical significance if someone needed an exhibit idea. 🙂 Jeff Salzman On Sat, Jan 28, 2023, 1:20 AM Douglas Crawford via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
On 1/27/2023 9:49 PM, Dave McGuire via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
On 1/27/23 21:20, Douglas Crawford via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
One working circuit idea: I just was researching the TI ALU that some mini computers used prior to microprocesses, 74S181. It was pretty influential. The logic diagram could work as a graphic to wear.
Seems I made the mistake of posting my response BEFORE my morning coffee and comingled this and the x86 message thread. For that reason, all my arguments generally remain the same, but I still vote for the mouse on a t-shirt, exploded view if you want a technical aspect to it. Jeff Salzman On Sat, Jan 28, 2023, 6:48 AM Jeff S <jsalzman@gmail.com> wrote:
The 74S181 is a remarkable chip in computing history, but I feel it may be too esoteric on a t-shirt if we were make it the theme of the t-shirt.
If the schematic was used as a generic graphic, along with a VCF slogan or something, people might easily understand it as "something about computing." If we called it what it is on the shirt, it'll probably generate questions like, "why this?", As opposed to the more common, "What is this?"
Questions from the public are good, but questions from a confused public are not as good. Unless we have exhibits or a show theme about the historical significance of the 74S181, then it's schematic graphic wouldn't work as a t-shirt graphic focused on the chip itself. It might actually hurt t-shirt sales. If you showed one of our average visitors a labeled picture of the 74S181 and an IBM PC, and asked them which one they would buy as a t-shirt, what do you believe they will choose?
Think of it like this... why did we put a Commodore 64 graphic on a t-shirt before, instead of a schematic or block diagram of its VIC-II chip? The latter is a significant chip in computing history, but people will more readily recognize a computer more than a specific chip.
I first wasn't wholly set on suggesting an IBM PC as the t-shirt graphic, but good points and arguments were made in this thread about doing so. Either way, the t-shirt graphic should be something more readily recognized by a passing viewer AND be historically significant this year. In lieu of any other ideas, the IBM PC would be a better choice in my opinion.
The 74S181 sure would be a great exhibit of historical significance if someone needed an exhibit idea. 🙂
Jeff mentioned the "dragon" t-shirt. It was eye-catching for a number of reasons. What stood out to me was the use of layers. Floppy / dragon / keyboard / computer / computer screen / maze / VCF. [image: image.png] On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 7:06 AM Jeff S via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
Seems I made the mistake of posting my response BEFORE my morning coffee and comingled this and the x86 message thread.
For that reason, all my arguments generally remain the same, but I still vote for the mouse on a t-shirt, exploded view if you want a technical aspect to it.
Jeff Salzman
On Sat, Jan 28, 2023, 6:48 AM Jeff S <jsalzman@gmail.com> wrote:
The 74S181 is a remarkable chip in computing history, but I feel it may be too esoteric on a t-shirt if we were make it the theme of the t-shirt.
If the schematic was used as a generic graphic, along with a VCF slogan or something, people might easily understand it as "something about computing." If we called it what it is on the shirt, it'll probably generate questions like, "why this?", As opposed to the more common, "What is this?"
Questions from the public are good, but questions from a confused public are not as good. Unless we have exhibits or a show theme about the historical significance of the 74S181, then it's schematic graphic wouldn't work as a t-shirt graphic focused on the chip itself. It might actually hurt t-shirt sales. If you showed one of our average visitors a labeled picture of the 74S181 and an IBM PC, and asked them which one they would buy as a t-shirt, what do you believe they will choose?
Think of it like this... why did we put a Commodore 64 graphic on a t-shirt before, instead of a schematic or block diagram of its VIC-II chip? The latter is a significant chip in computing history, but people will more readily recognize a computer more than a specific chip.
I first wasn't wholly set on suggesting an IBM PC as the t-shirt graphic, but good points and arguments were made in this thread about doing so. Either way, the t-shirt graphic should be something more readily recognized by a passing viewer AND be historically significant this year. In lieu of any other ideas, the IBM PC would be a better choice in my opinion.
The 74S181 sure would be a great exhibit of historical significance if someone needed an exhibit idea. 🙂
Agree completely, the '181 as an example of a manageable small, interesting and functional circuit. But there are far better themes for the shirt. At best perhaps the '181 could be a design element or background in some shirt. Probably not this one. Maybe in some minicomputer theme. An aside, the '181 will get a knod in the museum either an IC exhibit or special spot in the "s/m/l scale integration" minicomputer era. I agree with Jeff, the mouse is a very good candidate for the tshirt theme. We happen to a mouse exhibit too in the museum. Maybe someone can exhibit mice too in the show? DC On 1/28/2023 7:05 AM, Jeff S via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
Seems I made the mistake of posting my response BEFORE my morning coffee and comingled this and the x86 message thread.
For that reason, all my arguments generally remain the same, but I still vote for the mouse on a t-shirt, exploded view if you want a technical aspect to it.
Jeff Salzman
On Sat, Jan 28, 2023, 6:48 AM Jeff S <jsalzman@gmail.com> wrote:
The 74S181 is a remarkable chip in computing history, but I feel it may be too esoteric on a t-shirt if we were make it the theme of the t-shirt.
If the schematic was used as a generic graphic, along with a VCF slogan or something, people might easily understand it as "something about computing." If we called it what it is on the shirt, it'll probably generate questions like, "why this?", As opposed to the more common, "What is this?"
Questions from the public are good, but questions from a confused public are not as good. Unless we have exhibits or a show theme about the historical significance of the 74S181, then it's schematic graphic wouldn't work as a t-shirt graphic focused on the chip itself. It might actually hurt t-shirt sales. If you showed one of our average visitors a labeled picture of the 74S181 and an IBM PC, and asked them which one they would buy as a t-shirt, what do you believe they will choose?
Think of it like this... why did we put a Commodore 64 graphic on a t-shirt before, instead of a schematic or block diagram of its VIC-II chip? The latter is a significant chip in computing history, but people will more readily recognize a computer more than a specific chip.
I first wasn't wholly set on suggesting an IBM PC as the t-shirt graphic, but good points and arguments were made in this thread about doing so. Either way, the t-shirt graphic should be something more readily recognized by a passing viewer AND be historically significant this year. In lieu of any other ideas, the IBM PC would be a better choice in my opinion.
The 74S181 sure would be a great exhibit of historical significance if someone needed an exhibit idea. 🙂
I could just be a simple Blinky light circuit, just to make comment to the inderlying.technology that supports our hobby. How about that old 6502 test circuit?. Very easy to make into a shirt design dors anyone here knownwhat Inmean? I could draw it if anyone not sure On Sat, Jan 28, 2023, 6:48 AM Jeff S via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
The 74S181 is a remarkable chip in computing history, but I feel it may be too esoteric on a t-shirt if we were make it the theme of the t-shirt.
If the schematic was used as a generic graphic, along with a VCF slogan or something, people might easily understand it as "something about computing." If we called it what it is on the shirt, it'll probably generate questions like, "why this?", As opposed to the more common, "What is this?"
Questions from the public are good, but questions from a confused public are not as good. Unless we have exhibits or a show theme about the historical significance of the 74S181, then it's schematic graphic wouldn't work as a t-shirt graphic focused on the chip itself. It might actually hurt t-shirt sales. If you showed one of our average visitors a labeled picture of the 74S181 and an IBM PC, and asked them which one they would buy as a t-shirt, what do you believe they will choose?
Think of it like this... why did we put a Commodore 64 graphic on a t-shirt before, instead of a schematic or block diagram of its VIC-II chip? The latter is a significant chip in computing history, but people will more readily recognize a computer more than a specific chip.
I first wasn't wholly set on suggesting an IBM PC as the t-shirt graphic, but good points and arguments were made in this thread about doing so. Either way, the t-shirt graphic should be something more readily recognized by a passing viewer AND be historically significant this year. In lieu of any other ideas, the IBM PC would be a better choice in my opinion.
The 74S181 sure would be a great exhibit of historical significance if someone needed an exhibit idea. 🙂
Jeff Salzman
On Sat, Jan 28, 2023, 1:20 AM Douglas Crawford via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
On 1/27/2023 9:49 PM, Dave McGuire via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
On 1/27/23 21:20, Douglas Crawford via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
One working circuit idea: I just was researching the TI ALU that some mini computers used prior to microprocesses, 74S181. It was pretty influential. The logic diagram could work as a graphic to wear.
How about a Rube Goldberg design using a chip and supporting components.? Sent from: My extremely complicated, hand held electronic device.
On Jan 28, 2023, at 1:57 PM, Bill Degnan via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
I could just be a simple Blinky light circuit, just to make comment to the inderlying.technology that supports our hobby. How about that old 6502 test circuit?. Very easy to make into a shirt design dors anyone here knownwhat Inmean? I could draw it if anyone not sure
On Sat, Jan 28, 2023, 6:48 AM Jeff S via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
The 74S181 is a remarkable chip in computing history, but I feel it may be too esoteric on a t-shirt if we were make it the theme of the t-shirt.
If the schematic was used as a generic graphic, along with a VCF slogan or something, people might easily understand it as "something about computing." If we called it what it is on the shirt, it'll probably generate questions like, "why this?", As opposed to the more common, "What is this?"
Questions from the public are good, but questions from a confused public are not as good. Unless we have exhibits or a show theme about the historical significance of the 74S181, then it's schematic graphic wouldn't work as a t-shirt graphic focused on the chip itself. It might actually hurt t-shirt sales. If you showed one of our average visitors a labeled picture of the 74S181 and an IBM PC, and asked them which one they would buy as a t-shirt, what do you believe they will choose?
Think of it like this... why did we put a Commodore 64 graphic on a t-shirt before, instead of a schematic or block diagram of its VIC-II chip? The latter is a significant chip in computing history, but people will more readily recognize a computer more than a specific chip.
I first wasn't wholly set on suggesting an IBM PC as the t-shirt graphic, but good points and arguments were made in this thread about doing so. Either way, the t-shirt graphic should be something more readily recognized by a passing viewer AND be historically significant this year. In lieu of any other ideas, the IBM PC would be a better choice in my opinion.
The 74S181 sure would be a great exhibit of historical significance if someone needed an exhibit idea. 🙂
Jeff Salzman
On Sat, Jan 28, 2023, 1:20 AM Douglas Crawford via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
On 1/27/2023 9:49 PM, Dave McGuire via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
On 1/27/23 21:20, Douglas Crawford via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
One working circuit idea: I just was researching the TI ALU that some mini computers used prior to microprocesses, 74S181. It was pretty influential. The logic diagram could work as a graphic to wear.
Dave, Very Interesting. I like the use of the serial use of the'181s. I wonder if they used data selectors for the in and outs or fed them with shift registers. I'll add that to my mental musings of how I would build a hardware emulation of the UNIVAC 1219. Too easy now to do it in software. On 1/28/2023 1:20 AM, Douglas Crawford via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
On 1/27/2023 9:49 PM, Dave McGuire via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
On 1/27/23 21:20, Douglas Crawford via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
One working circuit idea: I just was researching the TI ALU that some mini computers used prior to microprocesses, 74S181. It was pretty influential. The logic diagram could work as a graphic to wear: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/The-logic-diagram-of-the-74LS181-ALU-IC_...
74181, a great chip. There's a column of four of them in most of the earlier PDP-11 processors. The earlier DG Nova processors use a single one, making four passes through it for 16 bits.
Ken Shirriff did a very nice blog post about the venerable '181. It's worth a read.
-Dave
K.S. '181 Blog: https://www.righto.com/2017/03/
-- DuaneCraps sdɐɹɔ ǝuɐnp
It uses buffer registers to gate four bits at a time into and out of the '181. It's a clever design, but obviously not the fastest. -Dave On 1/29/23 11:08, Duane Craps via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
Dave,
Very Interesting. I like the use of the serial use of the'181s. I wonder if they used data selectors for the in and outs or fed them with shift registers. I'll add that to my mental musings of how I would build a hardware emulation of the UNIVAC 1219. Too easy now to do it in software.
On 1/28/2023 1:20 AM, Douglas Crawford via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
On 1/27/2023 9:49 PM, Dave McGuire via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
On 1/27/23 21:20, Douglas Crawford via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
One working circuit idea: I just was researching the TI ALU that some mini computers used prior to microprocesses, 74S181. It was pretty influential. The logic diagram could work as a graphic to wear: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/The-logic-diagram-of-the-74LS181-ALU-IC_...
74181, a great chip. There's a column of four of them in most of the earlier PDP-11 processors. The earlier DG Nova processors use a single one, making four passes through it for 16 bits.
Ken Shirriff did a very nice blog post about the venerable '181. It's worth a read.
-Dave
K.S. '181 Blog: https://www.righto.com/2017/03/
-- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
So I went back to the list of anniversaries https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tkjGQhbQDW54asShsCCSn_ERgb2byDEF_l5a... 1963 First Design Prototype of Doug Engelbart's Mouse 1973 Xerox Alto 1973 Micral 1973 TV Typewriter 1973 Wang 2200 1983 Apple IIe 1983 Apple Lisa 1983 IBM XT 1983 Microsoft MSX 1983 Compaq Portable 1983 TRS-80 Model 100 1983 Grid Compass 1101 1983 Epson QX-10 1983 MS-DOS 2.0 Release 1983 John Scully joined Apple 1983 War Games Maybe something based on Doug Engelbart's Mouse? 60 years... On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 7:09 PM Jeffrey Brace via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
I'm starting the process for ideas and a design for this year's t-shirt. If anyone has any ideas that they want to throw to us, then please do so by replying to this email either publicly or privately.
Keep in mind that we may not use your idea, so don't feel disappointed if we choose another.
One t-shirt that was really popular was the "dragon" t-shirt which had the IBM 5150 running Adventure and a dragon on the side. Perhaps a similar iconic creature would be popular with people.
Thanks!
========================================= Jeff Brace VCF National Board Member Chairman & Vice President Vintage Computer Festival East Showrunner Vintage Computer Federation is a 501c3 charity https://vcfed.org/ <http://www.vcfed.org/> jeffrey@vcfed.org
The mouse idea is a good one. Perhaps if it can be drawn in an exploded view? The IBM XT would work, too, but there's still that hanging argument that x86 PC systems will never be considered "vintage" in any way. On Fri, Jan 27, 2023, 6:27 AM Christian Liendo via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
So I went back to the list of anniversaries
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tkjGQhbQDW54asShsCCSn_ERgb2byDEF_l5a...
1963 First Design Prototype of Doug Engelbart's Mouse 1973 Xerox Alto 1973 Micral 1973 TV Typewriter 1973 Wang 2200 1983 Apple IIe 1983 Apple Lisa 1983 IBM XT 1983 Microsoft MSX 1983 Compaq Portable 1983 TRS-80 Model 100 1983 Grid Compass 1101 1983 Epson QX-10 1983 MS-DOS 2.0 Release 1983 John Scully joined Apple 1983 War Games
Maybe something based on Doug Engelbart's Mouse? 60 years...
I have heard the argument you describe. The x86 PC thing is something I never understood at all. The IBM PC was released in 1981 and the XT was released in 1983 both predating the Mac. I just don’t get it. Jeff Galinat On Fri, Jan 27, 2023 at 4:39 AM Jeff S via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
The IBM XT would work, too, but there's still that hanging argument that x86 PC systems will never be considered "vintage" in any way.
On 1/27/23 10:39, Jeff Galinat via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
I have heard the argument you describe. The x86 PC thing is something I never understood at all. The IBM PC was released in 1981 and the XT was released in 1983 both predating the Mac.
They are just as vintage as anything else. The thinking at the time was that other than a few specific x86 machines they were just appliances basically. I used to think that way but it's now clear that they hold a place in the history of computers, even the clones. -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry kd2zrq@linuxha.com http://www.linuxha.com/ Main site http://linuxha.blogspot.com/ My HA Blog Author of: Linux Smart Homes For Dummies KD2ZRQ
They are just as vintage as anything else. The thinking at the time was that other than a few specific x86 machines they were just appliances basically. I used to think that way but it's now clear that they hold a place in the history of computers, even the clones.
Weighting it to history more was done with IBM PCs than the computers that came before it? I mean, many of are typing on the descendants of them right now. The rest all failed in the marketplace. Hopefully you all watched that Area 5150 demo video I posted. 16 colors in 620x200 mode on original CGA graphics. Whaaaaat?!?! - Ethan
On 1/27/23 11:58, Ethan O'Toole via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
I mean, many of are typing on the descendants of them right now. The rest all failed in the marketplace.
"Were eventually discontinued" is not the same as "failed in the marketplace". Many were wildly successful before being supplanted by other architectures. You know this. By your logic, when x86 PCs are eventually discontinued, which they surely will be at some point, you would then retroactively assert that they "failed in the marketplace". Nothing could be further from the truth. One must consider several contexts: market impact and penetration, market longevity (meaning the longevity of the actual market), and the time period you're talking about. (the last two are closely related) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
On 1/27/23 12:07, Dave McGuire via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
On 1/27/23 11:58, Ethan O'Toole via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
I mean, many of are typing on the descendants of them right now. The rest all failed in the marketplace.
"Were eventually discontinued" is not the same as "failed in the marketplace". Many were wildly successful before being supplanted by other architectures. You know this.
Similar thinking but with the birth of virtual machines I foresee a x86 forever just because we can emulate it in software or hardware (microcode for example). Of course this is what mainframes have done for the longest time. Heck you can even have your single phone have a business setup and a personal setup (I've not tried this). Future vintage is going to be interesting. I hope we (humans) still care. -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry kd2zrq@linuxha.com http://www.linuxha.com/ Main site http://linuxha.blogspot.com/ My HA Blog Author of: Linux Smart Homes For Dummies KD2ZRQ
On 1/27/23 22:19, Neil Cherry wrote:
Similar thinking but with the birth of virtual machines I foresee a x86 forever just because we can emulate it in software or hardware (microcode for example). Of course this is what mainframes have done for the longest time.
Mainframes are microcoded processors, yes, but then nearly all processors are microcoded. We've been implementing processors like that for a very long time. In the PDP-11 world, for example, the only PDP-11 model that's direct-decode (i.e. not microcoded) is the very first one, the PDP-11/20. Every VAX model is microcoded.. If I'm not mistaken, the Broca divide in the x86 lineage occurred with the 8086: The 8085 is a direct-decode processor, while the 8086 is microcoded. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
+1 for Neil's thoughts. There are plenty of cars that were "generic" at one point but are now retro/vintage/interesting. I think you'll find the sentiment for DOS PCs = retro = yes is increasing over time. (I also have a LOT more respect for those early Tandy's than I did a long time ago). On Fri, Jan 27, 2023, 10:52 AM Neil Cherry via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
On 1/27/23 10:39, Jeff Galinat via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
I have heard the argument you describe. The x86 PC thing is something I never understood at all. The IBM PC was released in 1981 and the XT was released in 1983 both predating the Mac.
They are just as vintage as anything else. The thinking at the time was that other than a few specific x86 machines they were just appliances basically.
I used to think that way but it's now clear that they hold a place in the history of computers, even the clones.
-- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry kd2zrq@linuxha.com http://www.linuxha.com/ Main site http://linuxha.blogspot.com/ My HA Blog Author of: Linux Smart Homes For Dummies KD2ZRQ
There are so many people out there with IBM and compatibles that are from the early 80s. They really should be considered vintage as well as “retro” Sent from: My extremely complicated, hand held electronic device.
On Jan 27, 2023, at 10:39 AM, Jeff Galinat via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
I have heard the argument you describe. The x86 PC thing is something I never understood at all. The IBM PC was released in 1981 and the XT was released in 1983 both predating the Mac. I just don’t get it. Jeff Galinat
On Fri, Jan 27, 2023 at 4:39 AM Jeff S via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
The IBM XT would work, too, but there's still that hanging argument that x86 PC systems will never be considered "vintage" in any way.
I like Bill Degnan's idea, or something similar. Technical stuff like this is timeless, and putting it on a t-shirt helps to immortalize it. It can be both a source of reminiscence for us older guys, and a learning experience for younger people. It seems that the anniversary idea can be overdone. There are a few anniversaries that are very significant that should be recognized. However, some of the more obscure ones probably don't need to be on a shirt. I think we should focus on events, systems, people, or software that are more universally important, notable, groundbreaking, etc. My point is that if we want to celebrate an anniversary, let's come up with better reasons than just the date coinciding with our event. Some food for thought, I hope. Chris On Fri, Jan 27, 2023 at 6:27 AM Christian Liendo via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
So I went back to the list of anniversaries
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tkjGQhbQDW54asShsCCSn_ERgb2byDEF_l5a...
1963 First Design Prototype of Doug Engelbart's Mouse 1973 Xerox Alto 1973 Micral 1973 TV Typewriter 1973 Wang 2200 1983 Apple IIe 1983 Apple Lisa 1983 IBM XT 1983 Microsoft MSX 1983 Compaq Portable 1983 TRS-80 Model 100 1983 Grid Compass 1101 1983 Epson QX-10 1983 MS-DOS 2.0 Release 1983 John Scully joined Apple 1983 War Games
Maybe something based on Doug Engelbart's Mouse? 60 years...
On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 7:09 PM Jeffrey Brace via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
I'm starting the process for ideas and a design for this year's t-shirt.
If
anyone has any ideas that they want to throw to us, then please do so by replying to this email either publicly or privately.
Keep in mind that we may not use your idea, so don't feel disappointed if we choose another.
One t-shirt that was really popular was the "dragon" t-shirt which had the IBM 5150 running Adventure and a dragon on the side. Perhaps a similar iconic creature would be popular with people.
Thanks!
========================================= Jeff Brace VCF National Board Member Chairman & Vice President Vintage Computer Festival East Showrunner Vintage Computer Federation is a 501c3 charity https://vcfed.org/ <http://www.vcfed.org/> jeffrey@vcfed.org
Wow! Lots of great ideas everyone and very good discussion. Keep it coming. I'm starting to get ideas based on recommendations and discussions here. ========================================= Jeff Brace VCF National Board Member Chairman & Vice President Vintage Computer Festival East Showrunner Vintage Computer Federation is a 501c3 charity https://vcfed.org/ <http://www.vcfed.org/> jeffrey@vcfed.org On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 7:08 PM Jeffrey Brace <jeffrey@vcfed.org> wrote:
I'm starting the process for ideas and a design for this year's t-shirt. If anyone has any ideas that they want to throw to us, then please do so by replying to this email either publicly or privately.
Keep in mind that we may not use your idea, so don't feel disappointed if we choose another.
One t-shirt that was really popular was the "dragon" t-shirt which had the IBM 5150 running Adventure and a dragon on the side. Perhaps a similar iconic creature would be popular with people.
Thanks!
========================================= Jeff Brace VCF National Board Member Chairman & Vice President Vintage Computer Festival East Showrunner Vintage Computer Federation is a 501c3 charity https://vcfed.org/ <http://www.vcfed.org/> jeffrey@vcfed.org
participants (15)
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Bart Hirst -
Bill Degnan -
Chris Fala -
Christian Liendo -
Dave McGuire -
Douglas Crawford -
Duane Craps -
Ethan O'Toole -
Jeff Galinat -
Jeff S -
Jeffrey Brace -
John Heritage -
Neil Cherry -
Ryan Stapleton -
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