Revised, My take on "what is vintage computing"
Most computers built before 1980 have either been destroyed or lost, and of those that exist very few are still operational. ... It thus makes perfect sense that new hobbyists are gobbling up post-vintage (my term) machines such as Intel 386/486 computers, Macintosh II’s, SGI’s, NeXT and DEC VAX boxes, etc. They’re obtainable and more familiar.
Well, Bill is right about the last point. 1990's computers are obtainable and more familiar to people who grew up in the 1980's and 90's. Some might be cheap because they are plentiful, or just underpriced. But here's the problem. Macs in particular, built with small surface mount components, are *failing left and right*. The capacitors weren't designed to last that long. Some of those components used inferior materials or methods. And - the components are more difficult to remove and replace on multilayer PC boards. Some of that applies to many PC-compatible boards too, depending on their era. And the Mac plastics? Crumbling. That's what plastics DO, otherwise the world would be covered with old plastics. They were not designed for 30 years use. Some pieces like reset buttons, lids, fasteners, bezels - like peanut brittle. Especially pieces around high voltage CRT's, it's the ozone. Fact. Bill - I *sell* vintage Macs. They are mostly falling apart. Some even are blasted from corroding batteries, or just moisture and rust. Sorry. Whereas (he he), those "destroyed" 1970's computers, were made in an era of owner-repair. They use large sized components on through-hole PC boards made for hand-soldering - because they were often built from kits by the owners. Translation - even "makers" that can solder Arduino kits, can figure out how to replace caps, pull IC's from boards. And the parts are STILL common, either old-stock or some new-stock. Also: no plastics. S-100 chassis are mostly metal and even wood. The toggle switches, they are plastic. $20 for an IMSAI paddle? Wow. S-100 boxes have been called "ugly boxes full of boards". Who's laughing now? "most destroyed or lost?" Better check eBay! I recently saw *well over one hundred* S-100 boards at auction. Several systems too. Thanks to the many grandpas who "hoarded" them, they have been preserved, and are now available for sale and restoration to use. Some good number of them, simply WORK. I sell those too, and that's my experience as well. They. are. repairable. and: There are STILL S-100 board kits - parts, boards, all new-stock obtained TODAY. Bill and I know people who offer them! It's its own thing! I'd never build a Pentium S-100 board, but some people have! Scares even me, Dr S-100 myself. Bill, he mentioned modern replicas too. You know, people have a right to do what's familiar, be wary of the unfamiliar. They don't know about the world before their childhood, unless they ask and look around. But ignorance can be a lost opportunity. And sticking with what you know, may get you stuck. It's all a matter of choices and opportunities, and the facts. There's enough for everyone's interests. But don't count out the 70's yet! I'm still hereeeeeee! Regards, Herb Johnson -- Herbert R. Johnson, New Jersey in the USA http://www.retrotechnology.com OR .net preserve, recover, restore 1970's computing email: hjohnson AT retrotechnology DOT com or try later herbjohnson AT comcast DOT net
Hello All, Does anyone ever think that the past 40 year cycle of computing is actually the most boring dominated by silicon valley/wall street? This is the computing cycle that basically invented and developed the software license. I find it to be the worst part of modern computing and large impetus to useless variations. I’m not discounting nostalgia as valid human pursuit but it’s different than multi-generational human pursuit computing. When computing was driven by human needs and desires… Ben
On Dec 23, 2020, at 2:25 PM, Herb Johnson via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
Most computers built before 1980 have either been destroyed or lost, and of those that exist very few are still operational. ... It thus makes perfect sense that new hobbyists are gobbling up post-vintage (my term) machines such as Intel 386/486 computers, Macintosh II’s, SGI’s, NeXT and DEC VAX boxes, etc. They’re obtainable and more familiar.
Well, Bill is right about the last point. 1990's computers are obtainable and more familiar to people who grew up in the 1980's and 90's. Some might be cheap because they are plentiful, or just underpriced. But here's the problem.
Macs in particular, built with small surface mount components, are *failing left and right*. The capacitors weren't designed to last that long. Some of those components used inferior materials or methods. And - the components are more difficult to remove and replace on multilayer PC boards. Some of that applies to many PC-compatible boards too, depending on their era.
And the Mac plastics? Crumbling. That's what plastics DO, otherwise the world would be covered with old plastics. They were not designed for 30 years use. Some pieces like reset buttons, lids, fasteners, bezels - like peanut brittle. Especially pieces around high voltage CRT's, it's the ozone. Fact.
Bill - I *sell* vintage Macs. They are mostly falling apart. Some even are blasted from corroding batteries, or just moisture and rust. Sorry.
Whereas (he he), those "destroyed" 1970's computers, were made in an era of owner-repair. They use large sized components on through-hole PC boards made for hand-soldering - because they were often built from kits by the owners. Translation - even "makers" that can solder Arduino kits, can figure out how to replace caps, pull IC's from boards. And the parts are STILL common, either old-stock or some new-stock.
Also: no plastics. S-100 chassis are mostly metal and even wood. The toggle switches, they are plastic. $20 for an IMSAI paddle? Wow.
S-100 boxes have been called "ugly boxes full of boards". Who's laughing now?
"most destroyed or lost?" Better check eBay! I recently saw *well over one hundred* S-100 boards at auction. Several systems too. Thanks to the many grandpas who "hoarded" them, they have been preserved, and are now available for sale and restoration to use. Some good number of them, simply WORK. I sell those too, and that's my experience as well. They. are. repairable.
and: There are STILL S-100 board kits - parts, boards, all new-stock obtained TODAY. Bill and I know people who offer them! It's its own thing! I'd never build a Pentium S-100 board, but some people have! Scares even me, Dr S-100 myself. Bill, he mentioned modern replicas too.
You know, people have a right to do what's familiar, be wary of the unfamiliar. They don't know about the world before their childhood, unless they ask and look around. But ignorance can be a lost opportunity. And sticking with what you know, may get you stuck. It's all a matter of choices and opportunities, and the facts. There's enough for everyone's interests.
But don't count out the 70's yet! I'm still hereeeeeee!
Regards, Herb Johnson
-- Herbert R. Johnson, New Jersey in the USA http://www.retrotechnology.com OR .net preserve, recover, restore 1970's computing email: hjohnson AT retrotechnology DOT com or try later herbjohnson AT comcast DOT net
On Wed, Dec 23, 2020 at 2:25 PM Herb Johnson via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
You know, people have a right to do what's familiar, be wary of the unfamiliar. They don't know about the world before their childhood...
Herb, I've pretty much agreed with your replies down the line on this. I wanted to add that I see a lot of "baby duck syndrome" where people of all ages fixate on two things: the system they used to have when they were younger (that exact age varies a bit) or, less often, the system they _wanted_ but couldn't get at about the same age. I first fell into the 1802 and 6502, two of my favorites to this day.
But don't count out the 70's yet! I'm still hereeeeeee!
Yep. Plenty of cool relics from the 70s... and us too. ;-) -ethan
On Sat, Dec 26, 2020, 11:23 PM Ethan Dicks via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
On Wed, Dec 23, 2020 at 2:25 PM Herb Johnson via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
You know, people have a right to do what's familiar, be wary of the unfamiliar. They don't know about the world before their childhood...
Herb,
I've pretty much agreed with your replies down the line on this. I wanted to add that I see a lot of "baby duck syndrome" where people of all ages fixate on two things: the system they used to have when they were younger (that exact age varies a bit) or, less often, the system they _wanted_ but couldn't get at about the same age. I first fell into the 1802 and 6502, two of my favorites to this day.
But don't count out the 70's yet! I'm still hereeeeeee!
Yep. Plenty of cool relics from the 70s... and us too. ;-)
-ethan
Thank you for the thoughtful replies. Bill
participants (4)
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Ben Greenfield -
Bill Degnan -
Ethan Dicks -
Herb Johnson