I'm looking fixing the 3B1 at the next workshop. From the last workshop it seems like the hard drive has died. Since I likely will need do do a new installation Was there anything in particular on it that people liked for demos? Is their anything people like on Unix machines to use for demos? If not I'll go with standard OS & software that was on the machines and see what interesting stuff I see in the archives. For the straight 8 has anyone tried to operarate it since the last workshop I was at (the one previous to the last workshop). If so was their any problems? If not would anyone doing the tours like to learn how to use it?
Was there anything in particular on it that people liked for demos?
I don't think so. There were some utilities and games. I would like to have it demo something more substantial but I don't know what.
For the straight 8 has anyone tried to operarate it since the last workshop I was at (the one previous to the last workshop). If so was their any problems?
I used it a couple of times. User error :) but the computer seems fine. I intend to show Jeff how to do the demos you taught me. On Tue, Oct 29, 2019, 9:42 PM David Gesswein via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
I'm looking fixing the 3B1 at the next workshop. From the last workshop it seems like the hard drive has died. Since I likely will need do do a new installation Was there anything in particular on it that people liked for demos? Is their anything people like on Unix machines to use for demos? If not I'll go with standard OS & software that was on the machines and see what interesting stuff I see in the archives.
For the straight 8 has anyone tried to operarate it since the last workshop I was at (the one previous to the last workshop). If so was their any problems? If not would anyone doing the tours like to learn how to use it?
On 2019-10-29 21:46, Evan Koblentz via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
Was there anything in particular on it that people liked for demos?
I don't think so. There were some utilities and games. I would like to have it demo something more substantial but I don't know what.
I have boxes of disks that came with my AT&T 5300 and my 3B2, I'll take a look through them and see what 3rd party stuff is in there. I know that at least one of them was used for medical billing and has a bunch of user data disks and backups that went with it. Even on more recent Unixes like I demo'd, I haven't had much luck finding Serious Business applications. Winworldpc.com has a little, but I think that this stuff just didn't stick around, or never made it off of install media. Aside: I just barely got Adobe Acrobat working; CorelDRAW was a bust though I'll beat on it some more along with WordPerfect. But these aren't super exciting. I have a to-do to try to find sympathetic contacts at Parametric and wherever Dassault Systems ended up to try to get old Pro/Engineer and CATIA installers. Because those CAD programs are truly impressive. CATIA was bleeding-edge at the time. -- Jameel Akari
On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 10:20:41AM -0400, Jameel Akari via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
I have boxes of disks that came with my AT&T 5300 and my 3B2, I'll take a look through them and see what 3rd party stuff is in there.
I assume you know the 3B1 uses a different processor than the 3B2 and its graphics isn't compatible with other systems of the time. I assume there is some 3B2 source could be recompiled for the 3B1 and would be interesting. I didn't find anything classic computer related googling the 5300.
On 2019-10-30 13:47, David Gesswein via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 10:20:41AM -0400, Jameel Akari via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
I have boxes of disks that came with my AT&T 5300 and my 3B2, I'll take a look through them and see what 3rd party stuff is in there.
I assume you know the 3B1 uses a different processor than the 3B2 and its graphics isn't compatible with other systems of the time.
Yes. I'm just trying to find examples of what might have been available (and long-shot, if the software came bundled for multiple cpus.) Multi-user terminal mode stuff wouldn't matter on the graphics, I'd guess?
I assume there is some 3B2 source could be recompiled for the 3B1 and would be interesting.
Yep.
I didn't find anything classic computer related googling the 5300.
I meant 6300 (series) and specifically a 6386WGS (I think). (These are x86 based.) Same reasoning in that they were more or less contemporaneous and in similar-ish markets. -- Jameel Akari
On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 2:52 PM Jameel Akari via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
On 2019-10-30 13:47, David Gesswein via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 10:20:41AM -0400, Jameel Akari via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
I have boxes of disks that came with my AT&T 5300 and my 3B2, I'll take a look through them and see what 3rd party stuff is in there.
I assume you know the 3B1 uses a different processor than the 3B2 and its graphics isn't compatible with other systems of the time.
Yes. I'm just trying to find examples of what might have been available (and long-shot, if the software came bundled for multiple cpus.) Multi-user terminal mode stuff wouldn't matter on the graphics, I'd guess?
I assume there is some 3B2 source could be recompiled for the 3B1 and would be interesting.
Yep.
I didn't find anything classic computer related googling the 5300.
I meant 6300 (series) and specifically a 6386WGS (I think). (These are x86 based.) Same reasoning in that they were more or less contemporaneous and in similar-ish markets.
-- Jameel Akari
anyway, when I demoed a 7300 at HOPE I set it up to be the "Hacker Crackdown" workstation, which for many is what makes this model famous/historic. I put Phrack on there and communications software to connect to BBSs, etc. There is a good FAQ here http://unixpc.taronga.com/faq/faq.txt Search for the SCORE! public domain archive to locate software. Bill
On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 9:41 PM David Gesswein via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
I'm looking fixing the 3B1 at the next workshop. From the last workshop it seems like the hard drive has died. Since I likely will need do do a new installation Was there anything in particular on it that people liked for demos? Is their anything people like on Unix machines to use for demos? If not I'll go with standard OS & software that was on the machines and see what interesting stuff I see in the archives.
I like to show the Unix prompt and how it works because it is a command line based OS which is much different than modern GUI. I wonder though if there is something like Zork for this system or if it can be adapted. Personally I would like a better editor than the built in “ed”. Maybe there is the “vi” available? I would for some show a C program and how to compile from the command line. But is there a GUI version. And just for fun is there a BASIC interpreter or compiler available?
For the straight 8 has anyone tried to operarate it since the last workshop I was at (the one previous to the last workshop). If so was their any problems? If not would anyone doing the tours like to learn how to use it?
I had it working, but must be missing a step because I didn’t get the demo to work.
--
========================================= Jeff Brace Vice President Vintage Computer Federation
For the straight 8 has anyone tried to operarate it since the last workshop I was at (the one previous to the last workshop). If so was their any problems? If not would anyone doing the tours like to learn how to use it?
I had it working, but must be missing a step because I didn’t get the demo to work.
It takes a lot of practice because it's so different from what we are used to doing. On Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 11:18 AM Jeffrey Brace via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 9:41 PM David Gesswein via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
I'm looking fixing the 3B1 at the next workshop. From the last workshop it seems like the hard drive has died. Since I likely will need do do a new installation Was there anything in particular on it that people liked for demos? Is their anything people like on Unix machines to use for demos? If not I'll go with standard OS & software that was on the machines and see what interesting stuff I see in the archives.
I like to show the Unix prompt and how it works because it is a command line based OS which is much different than modern GUI.
I wonder though if there is something like Zork for this system or if it can be adapted.
Personally I would like a better editor than the built in “ed”. Maybe there is the “vi” available?
I would for some show a C program and how to compile from the command line. But is there a GUI version.
And just for fun is there a BASIC interpreter or compiler available?
For the straight 8 has anyone tried to operarate it since the last
workshop
I was at (the one previous to the last workshop). If so was their any problems? If not would anyone doing the tours like to learn how to use it?
I had it working, but must be missing a step because I didn’t get the demo to work.
--
========================================= Jeff Brace Vice President Vintage Computer Federation
On 10/31/19 11:18 AM, Jeffrey Brace via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
I like to show the Unix prompt and how it works because it is a command line based OS which is much different than modern GUI.
It would be better to show it off a bit and explain the fact that there's nothing inherently more or less modern about a GUI.
Personally I would like a better editor than the built in “ed”. Maybe there is the “vi” available?
Yes, vi is available on that platform. Even when the 3B1/7300 was new in the 1980s, essentially nobody used ed, but it was just never removed from the distribution. Also, emacs can be built on the 3B1, though it takes awhile. It runs well on that platform but you'll want additional memory; do you have a 1.5MB RAM expansion board installed in that system? I think the version I built on the 3B1 (when it was new) was 18.59, the source code for which is still available.
I would for some show a C program and how to compile from the command line. But is there a GUI version.
There are no true "GUI versions" of compilers that I'm aware of; even the IDEs that the millenials all flock to run command-line compilers underneath the covers. There are better compilers, though; GCC produces excellent code for the 68K family, and it does run on the 3B1. If you install that, at least you'll have ANSI compatibility which opens up a positively gigantic world of software that can be compiled on that system.
And just for fun is there a BASIC interpreter or compiler available?
Look for Bywater BASIC (bwbasic); it should compile on that platform. I will be digging into some of my 3B1/7300 systems before too long. If I end up building any of that stuff, I'll send you binaries along with some guidance on how to install them. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
On Thu, Oct 31, 2019 at 12:14 PM Dave McGuire via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
Also, emacs can be built on the 3B1, though it takes awhile. It runs well on that platform but you'll want additional memory; do you have a 1.5MB RAM expansion board installed in that system? I think the version I built on the 3B1 (when it was new) was 18.59, the source code for which is still available.
If you have gnu emacs, you have something interesting to look at that's good for demos: ^U 10 Esc x hanoi Enter 10 might be too low, so if it finishes too quickly give it a bigger number like 15 or 20.
On 11/1/19 12:18 PM, Kenneth Gober via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
Also, emacs can be built on the 3B1, though it takes awhile. It runs well on that platform but you'll want additional memory; do you have a 1.5MB RAM expansion board installed in that system? I think the version I built on the 3B1 (when it was new) was 18.59, the source code for which is still available.
If you have gnu emacs, you have something interesting to look at that's good for demos: ^U 10 Esc x hanoi Enter
10 might be too low, so if it finishes too quickly give it a bigger number like 15 or 20.
There are many other good ones in GNU emacs too, like M-x doctor. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
On Fri, Nov 1, 2019 at 12:35 PM Dave McGuire via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
If you have gnu emacs, you have something interesting to look at that's good for demos: ^U 10 Esc x hanoi Enter
There are many other good ones in GNU emacs too, like M-x doctor.
M-x yow
On Thursday, October 31, 2019, 11:18:37 AM EDT, Jeffrey Brace via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
I wonder though if there is something like Zork for this system or if it can be adapted.
I used to use the 3b1 quite heavily in the early '90s, and I'm pretty sure I remember running a build of rogue on it, though I usually ran without the windowing system to get a full 80 columns.
Personally I would like a better editor than the built in “ed”. Maybe there is the “vi” available?
As Dave mentiones, yes there are many other editors for it. The unixpc.taronga.com site that was mentioned earlier is Peter da Silva's redepolyment of the site that I used to maintain at Rhodes College in the '90s. There's a lot of stuff there. I even got carried away and created my own custom font for the machine.
I would for some show a C program and how to compile from the command line. But is there a GUI version.
As for a C compiler, there are a couple of gcc ports and there's the one that comes with the dev tools. BLS
On Oct 31, 2019, at 11:18, Jeffrey Brace via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
Personally I would like a better editor than the built in “ed”. Maybe there is the “vi” available?
But ed(1) is the standard editor!
I would for some show a C program and how to compile from the command line. But is there a GUI version.
No. It was built for the command line. cc hello.c -o hello should be all you need. - Dave
On 10/31/19 1:12 PM, David Riley via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
On Oct 31, 2019, at 11:18, Jeffrey Brace via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
Personally I would like a better editor than the built in “ed”. Maybe there is the “vi” available?
But ed(1) is the standard editor!
I seem to recall that vi relied on ed and ex. In Linux I don't this is the case any longer. I don't know about BSD but would expect that this is the case there also. -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@linuxha.com http://www.linuxha.com/ Main site http://linuxha.blogspot.com/ My HA Blog Author of: Linux Smart Homes For Dummies
On 10/31/19 1:44 PM, Neil Cherry via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
Personally I would like a better editor than the built in “ed”. Maybe there is the “vi” available?
But ed(1) is the standard editor!
I seem to recall that vi relied on ed and ex. In Linux I don't this is the case any longer. I don't know about BSD but would expect that this is the case there also.
Vi started life as a "visual" (full-screen) mode within ex. so they used to be the same editor. The ex editor was originally derived from ed. Put into the filesystem using links, they look at argv[0] to determine what mode to enter at invocation time. But that program was a part of the encumbered BSD code base, until it was open-sourced as a part of OpenSolaris. In the intervening years, vim ("VI Modified") became the de-facto standard implementation of vi in the Linux world. Early Linux distributions were distributed with "original" vi, however. If memory serves, this was originally illegal but AT&T eventually let them do it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
-----Original Message----- From: vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic-bounces@lists.vcfed.org> On Behalf Of Dave McGuire via vcf-midatlantic Sent: 31 October 2019 18:44 To: vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> Cc: Dave McGuire <mcguire@neurotica.com> Subject: Re: [vcf-midatlantic] Museum 3B1 & PDP-8
On 10/31/19 1:44 PM, Neil Cherry via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
Personally I would like a better editor than the built in “ed”. Maybe there is the “vi” available?
But ed(1) is the standard editor!
I seem to recall that vi relied on ed and ex. In Linux I don't this is the case any longer. I don't know about BSD but would expect that this is the case there also.
Vi started life as a "visual" (full-screen) mode within ex. so they used to be the same editor. The ex editor was originally derived from ed. Put into the filesystem using links, they look at argv[0] to determine what mode to enter at invocation time. But that program was a part of the encumbered BSD code base, until it was open-sourced as a part of OpenSolaris.
In the intervening years, vim ("VI Modified") became the de-facto standard implementation of vi in the Linux world. Early Linux distributions were distributed with "original" vi, however. If memory serves, this was originally illegal but AT&T eventually let them do it.
-Dave
-- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
When I had to earn a living, I used to keep a copy of the EMACS manual on my desk, sat on top of a copy of the Dilbert Principle. Open one or the other before consultant arrives.... Dave G4UGM
On Oct 31, 2019, at 1:44 PM, Neil Cherry <ncherry@linuxha.com> wrote:
On 10/31/19 1:12 PM, David Riley via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
On Oct 31, 2019, at 11:18, Jeffrey Brace via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
Personally I would like a better editor than the built in “ed”. Maybe there is the “vi” available?
But ed(1) is the standard editor!
I seem to recall that vi relied on ed and ex. In Linux I don't this is the case any longer. I don't know about BSD but would expect that this is the case there also.
Both BSD and SysV (which a 3B1 would likely be running) have vi. Beware, though: it is not the vi you're probably used to, it runs in line mode (not hugely different from ed). It's good to learn new things! - Dave
On 11/1/19 12:25 PM, David Riley via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
I seem to recall that vi relied on ed and ex. In Linux I don't this is the case any longer. I don't know about BSD but would expect that this is the case there also.
Both BSD and SysV (which a 3B1 would likely be running) have vi. Beware, though: it is not the vi you're probably used to, it runs in line mode (not hugely different from ed).
No, that's "ex". The ex editor was later extended with a "visual" mode, which is run when ex is invoked as "vi", by looking at argv[0]. The visual mode is the full-screen mode that everyone is used to. And the 3B1 runs System V release 2, with some minor BSD extensions. It's not a particularly "early" UNIX. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
On Thu, Oct 31, 2019 at 11:18:16AM -0400, Jeffrey Brace via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
I like to show the Unix prompt and how it works because it is a command line based OS which is much different than modern GUI.
Its a transition machine. It does have a GUI but not one of the more common standards. With only 720x348 resolution its also pretty limited. Like others said the space taken by the GUI wasted space you frequently wanted for text. There was a port of MGR https://hack.org/mc/mgr/ but I don't think it was widely used. The machine wasn't powerfull enough to run X.
I wonder though if there is something like Zork for this system or if it can be adapted.
My wife did a port. Also was involved in nethack and kept it running on the 3B1 for a while. Current nethack won't fit. http://www.pdp8online.com/shows/vcfe16/3b1-zork.shtml I think you can compile the Z machine for it and run the classic games. I'll put some of this on.
On 10/31/19 8:44 PM, David Gesswein via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
There was a port of MGR https://hack.org/mc/mgr/ but I don't think it was widely used.
I ran MGR briefly. It was very lightweight compared to "ua" (User Agent, the native 3B1 windowing system).
The machine wasn't powerfull enough to run X.
Of course it was, it was just never ported. Sun-2 systems run X just fine, with the same CPU at the same clock rate. Dissimilar systems-level architectures, but most of it was CPU bound. The 3B1/7300 had already been around for a few years before X11 was released. X10 was in its heyday at the same time as the 3B1, but X10 wasn't getting anywhere near the attention as X11 did just a few years later. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
The machine wasn't powerfull enough to run X.
Of course it was, it was just never ported. Sun-2 systems run X just fine, with the same CPU at the same clock rate.
My first X was X11R5 on Sparc and PA-RISC processors so later and coloring my opinion of what was possible. How much memory was needed to usefully run X11 on a Sun-2?
On 10/31/19 10:41 PM, David Gesswein via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
The machine wasn't powerfull enough to run X.
Of course it was, it was just never ported. Sun-2 systems run X just fine, with the same CPU at the same clock rate.
My first X was X11R5 on Sparc and PA-RISC processors so later and coloring my opinion of what was possible. How much memory was needed to usefully run X11 on a Sun-2?
I ran it in 2MB on my 2/170. It swapped itself senseless, but it ran and I could get work done. It was much better (both I and my disks were a lot happier) when I added a 4MB board. I ran X10R4 on a VAX, and jumped to X11R3 on the Sun-2. When X11R4 came out, I built that, and it was so much faster I was actually startled by it when I first started it up. The R3-R4 difference was amazing. I will never forget that day. As an interesting benchmark, it took about the same time to compile X11R4 on a Sun-2/170 with 6MB and a MicroVAX-II with 9MB, both with fast disks. They were both within a few minutes of twelve hours. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
On Thu, Oct 31, 2019 at 8:45 PM David Gesswein via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
I wonder though if there is something like Zork for this system or if it can be adapted.
My wife did a port. Also was involved in nethack and kept it running on the 3B1 for a while. Current nethack won't fit. http://www.pdp8online.com/shows/vcfe16/3b1-zork.shtml
Nice.
I think you can compile the Z machine for it and run the classic games.
I would expect a Z-machine would be easy to put on there. Even a machine with 32K can run the original "v3" games. The later games did take more RAM but not megabytes. If you want that original flavor, I ported the original MDL sources to Inform about 20 years ago... http://mirror.ifarchive.org/if-archive/games/zcode/zdungeon.z5 There's one outstanding major bug I need to get around to fixing - because of differences in order of actions in the MDL loop and the Inform loop, if the thief pickpockets you the exact turn you pick up a treasure, you won't get the points for finding it. The workaround is delay for a couple of turns until he moves on, then either he has stolen it, or you can pick it up and get all the points. It's winnable but it's also _possible_ that a specific playthrough could be blocked from completion. It's unlikely anyone is going to attempt a full game at a museum, so no worries there. I just wanted to mention that in case anyone here tries to play it all the way through. All classic machines should play Zork. It's a big part of 80s gaming. -ethan
participants (13)
-
Bill Degnan -
Brian L. Stuart -
Chris Fala -
Dave McGuire -
Dave Wade -
David Gesswein -
David Riley -
Ethan Dicks -
Evan Koblentz -
Jameel Akari -
Jeffrey Brace -
Kenneth Gober -
Neil Cherry