Hey all -- Which (popular) 8-bit computers gained "easy" or even "standard" 80 column support? I know there are a ton more 8bits than I'll list below, but my understanding is: Atari 8bit -- XEP80 official accessory but almost no one bought it; used joystick ports.. slow and limited 80 column (black and white?). Atari did have a 60 column graphics/text mode IIRC. there is a software hack that uses narrow characters for '80 columns' but hard to read, and came out after the machine was no longer commerically sold. Apple II - supported via cards. If 80 column support became common, when did it become common? what was normal for color count, etc? C64 - C128 mode natively offered 80 column support; millions of these sold. So maybe common later on? 16 colors. PET - no 80 column? C Plus/4 - software hack? ZX Spectrum -- available via some clones only, not common? BBC Micro - Looks like a native mode for 80 column support? TRS-80 - no native 80 column support? Thanks! John
Nearly all of the nice civilized S-100 systems, which were almost (but not all) 8-bitters, used either external terminals or "terminal on a board" video+keyboard interfaces that had 80 columns. -Dave On 6/25/22 09:31, John Heritage via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
Hey all --
Which (popular) 8-bit computers gained "easy" or even "standard" 80 column support?
I know there are a ton more 8bits than I'll list below, but my understanding is:
Atari 8bit -- XEP80 official accessory but almost no one bought it; used joystick ports.. slow and limited 80 column (black and white?). Atari did have a 60 column graphics/text mode IIRC. there is a software hack that uses narrow characters for '80 columns' but hard to read, and came out after the machine was no longer commerically sold.
Apple II - supported via cards. If 80 column support became common, when did it become common? what was normal for color count, etc?
C64 - C128 mode natively offered 80 column support; millions of these sold. So maybe common later on? 16 colors.
PET - no 80 column?
C Plus/4 - software hack?
ZX Spectrum -- available via some clones only, not common?
BBC Micro - Looks like a native mode for 80 column support?
TRS-80 - no native 80 column support?
Thanks! John
-- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
On Sat, Jun 25, 2022 at 9:31 AM John Heritage via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
Apple II - supported via cards. If 80 column support became common, when did it become common? what was normal for color count, etc?
I'd guess it became common with the //e, which had a dedicated slot for an 80-column card.
PET - no 80 column?
Commodore made PETs with 80 columns, those were the CBM 8016, 8032, etc. And of course the SuperPET SP9000. -ken
The TRS-80 Model 4 had a native 80 column mode. On Sat, Jun 25, 2022 at 10:09 AM Wil via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
The ace-80 from 1985 or so for the Atari 800.
http://www.atarimania.com/mags/pdf/analog_no_42.pdf
Reviewed in here.
On Jun 25, 2022 09:31, John Heritage via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
Hey all --
Which (popular) 8-bit computers gained "easy" or even "standard" 80 column support?
I know there are a ton more 8bits than I'll list below, but my understanding is:
Atari 8bit -- XEP80 official accessory but almost no one bought it; used joystick ports.. slow and limited 80 column (black and white?). Atari did have a 60 column graphics/text mode IIRC. there is a software hack that uses narrow characters for '80 columns' but hard to read, and came out after the machine was no longer commerically sold.
Apple II - supported via cards. If 80 column support became common, when did it become common? what was normal for color count, etc?
C64 - C128 mode natively offered 80 column support; millions of these sold. So maybe common later on? 16 colors.
PET - no 80 column?
C Plus/4 - software hack?
ZX Spectrum -- available via some clones only, not common?
BBC Micro - Looks like a native mode for 80 column support?
TRS-80 - no native 80 column support?
Thanks! John
I get that you said "popular" to mean Apple/Commodore/Tandy appliance computers for the home. So the answer is not many, if any, color graphics home appliance computers had native 80 column mode before 1985. On Sat, Jun 25, 2022 at 11:07 AM Dean Notarnicola via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
The TRS-80 Model 4 had a native 80 column mode.
On Sat, Jun 25, 2022 at 10:09 AM Wil via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
The ace-80 from 1985 or so for the Atari 800.
http://www.atarimania.com/mags/pdf/analog_no_42.pdf
Reviewed in here.
On Jun 25, 2022 09:31, John Heritage via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
Hey all --
Which (popular) 8-bit computers gained "easy" or even "standard" 80 column support?
I know there are a ton more 8bits than I'll list below, but my understanding is:
Atari 8bit -- XEP80 official accessory but almost no one bought it; used joystick ports.. slow and limited 80 column (black and white?). Atari did have a 60 column graphics/text mode IIRC. there is a software hack that uses narrow characters for '80 columns' but hard to read, and came out after the machine was no longer commerically sold.
Apple II - supported via cards. If 80 column support became common, when did it become common? what was normal for color count, etc?
C64 - C128 mode natively offered 80 column support; millions of these sold. So maybe common later on? 16 colors.
PET - no 80 column?
C Plus/4 - software hack?
ZX Spectrum -- available via some clones only, not common?
BBC Micro - Looks like a native mode for 80 column support?
TRS-80 - no native 80 column support?
Thanks! John
Can't the CoCo 3 do 80 x 24? Dave G4UGM
-----Original Message----- From: vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic-bounces@lists.vcfed.org> On Behalf Of Bill Degnan via vcf-midatlantic Sent: 25 June 2022 16:41 To: vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> Cc: Bill Degnan <billdegnan@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [vcf-midatlantic] 8-bits and 80 columns
I get that you said "popular" to mean Apple/Commodore/Tandy appliance computers for the home. So the answer is not many, if any, color graphics home appliance computers had native 80 column mode before 1985.
On Sat, Jun 25, 2022 at 11:07 AM Dean Notarnicola via vcf-midatlantic < vcf- midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
The TRS-80 Model 4 had a native 80 column mode.
On Sat, Jun 25, 2022 at 10:09 AM Wil via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
The ace-80 from 1985 or so for the Atari 800.
http://www.atarimania.com/mags/pdf/analog_no_42.pdf
Reviewed in here.
On Jun 25, 2022 09:31, John Heritage via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
Hey all --
Which (popular) 8-bit computers gained "easy" or even "standard" 80 column support?
I know there are a ton more 8bits than I'll list below, but my understanding is:
Atari 8bit -- XEP80 official accessory but almost no one bought it; used joystick ports.. slow and limited 80 column (black and white?). Atari did have a 60 column graphics/text mode IIRC. there is a software hack that uses narrow characters for '80 columns' but hard to read, and came out after the machine was no longer commerically sold.
Apple II - supported via cards. If 80 column support became common, when did it become common? what was normal for color count, etc?
C64 - C128 mode natively offered 80 column support; millions of these sold. So maybe common later on? 16 colors.
PET - no 80 column?
C Plus/4 - software hack?
ZX Spectrum -- available via some clones only, not common?
BBC Micro - Looks like a native mode for 80 column support?
TRS-80 - no native 80 column support?
Thanks! John
On Jun 25, 2022, at 9:31 AM, John Heritage via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
Atari 8bit -- XEP80 official accessory but almost no one bought it; used joystick ports.. slow and limited 80 column (black and white?). Atari did have a 60 column graphics/text mode IIRC. there is a software hack that uses narrow characters for '80 columns' but hard to read, and came out after the machine was no longer commerically sold.
You can buy a re-designed, modern XEP-80-II today - it does most of what the original did plus it does native HDMI upscaling for you - i.e. you can use it just as a HDMI converter for your Atari video (like a retrotink does). This model is _not_ slow. I did a in-depth video review of the XEP-80 II here. It's pretty cool. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q31gSFRtHRA <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q31gSFRtHRA>
TRS-80 - no native 80 column support?
Model 100 had the DVI. Photo in action below. The DVI did beautiful 80x24 on a composite mono monitor. https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/tandy-radio-shack-disk-video-inter... <https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/tandy-radio-shack-disk-video-interface-dvi-for-model-100-102-and-200.34776/post-426698> -andy
On June 25, 2022 11:06:24 AM Andrew Diller via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
TRS-80 - no native 80 column support?
Model 100 had the DVI. Photo in action below. The DVI did beautiful 80x24 on a composite mono monitor. https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/tandy-radio-shack-disk-video-inter... <https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/tandy-radio-shack-disk-video-interface-dvi-for-model-100-102-and-200.34776/post-426698>
Wwwwow that's nice. I have one of those but I need a cable for it. I'd never seen one in operation before. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
Ok, I was planning on setting mine up to do a little Fujinet investigation on it. I'll make a video of the DVI doing some things. It can at the least act like a terminal for a UNIX system. Or dial up a BBS. -andy
On Jun 25, 2022, at 2:54 PM, Dave McGuire via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
On June 25, 2022 11:06:24 AM Andrew Diller via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
TRS-80 - no native 80 column support?
Model 100 had the DVI. Photo in action below. The DVI did beautiful 80x24 on a composite mono monitor. https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/tandy-radio-shack-disk-video-inter... <https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/tandy-radio-shack-disk-video-interface-dvi-for-model-100-102-and-200.34776/post-426698>
Wwwwow that's nice. I have one of those but I need a cable for it. I'd never seen one in operation before.
-Dave
-- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
I subscribed to Micro C for all but a few issues back when I had a Big Board. That machine was sold decades ago to the publisher of Micro C but I held onto the magazine issues for some reason. No, Corsham Technologies has no plans of making a modern reproduction :-) Tried selling them on eBay with no luck so if anyone wants them, either pick-up in Medford (Burlington County) NJ or I can ship and buyer refunds shipping costs. Either four or five issues are missing; have searched around the computer book section of my library several times and have not found them. Email off list please if interested. Bob PS: Anyone interested in beer making equipment? Trying to get all this out of the basement too.
Hi Bob, I have a couple of BigBoards and am very interested in these magazines. If you could part with them for the cost of shipping costs to a U.S. address, that would be very much appreciated! Malcolm -----Original Message----- From: vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic-bounces@lists.vcfed.org> On Behalf Of Bob Applegate via vcf-midatlantic Sent: Saturday, 17 December 2022 09:10 To: vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> Cc: Bob Applegate <bob@corshamtech.com> Subject: [vcf-midatlantic] Free: Almost complete set of Micro Cornucopia I subscribed to Micro C for all but a few issues back when I had a Big Board. That machine was sold decades ago to the publisher of Micro C but I held onto the magazine issues for some reason. No, Corsham Technologies has no plans of making a modern reproduction :-) Tried selling them on eBay with no luck so if anyone wants them, either pick-up in Medford (Burlington County) NJ or I can ship and buyer refunds shipping costs. Either four or five issues are missing; have searched around the computer book section of my library several times and have not found them. Email off list please if interested. Bob PS: Anyone interested in beer making equipment? Trying to get all this out of the basement too.
I'd say Kaypros were popular enough to be in this category. Most contemporary CP/M boxes that used video eventually went to 80-column, even when it was an unfortunate choice for the CRT (e.g. Osborne). Thanks, Jonathan ------- Original Message ------- On Saturday, June 25th, 2022 at 09:31, John Heritage via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
Hey all --
Which (popular) 8-bit computers gained "easy" or even "standard" 80 column support?
I know there are a ton more 8bits than I'll list below, but my understanding is:
Atari 8bit -- XEP80 official accessory but almost no one bought it; used joystick ports.. slow and limited 80 column (black and white?). Atari did have a 60 column graphics/text mode IIRC. there is a software hack that uses narrow characters for '80 columns' but hard to read, and came out after the machine was no longer commerically sold.
Apple II - supported via cards. If 80 column support became common, when did it become common? what was normal for color count, etc?
C64 - C128 mode natively offered 80 column support; millions of these sold. So maybe common later on? 16 colors.
PET - no 80 column?
C Plus/4 - software hack?
ZX Spectrum -- available via some clones only, not common?
BBC Micro - Looks like a native mode for 80 column support?
TRS-80 - no native 80 column support?
Thanks! John
On Sat, Jun 25, 2022 at 9:32 AM John Heritage via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
Apple II - supported via cards. If 80 column support became common, when did it become common? what was normal for color count, etc?
Apple IIe was frequently 80 col-capable. No colors in text mode (graphics mode was still lores 16 color, hires ~6 color)
PET - no 80 column?
8032, 8096 and SuperPET were all 80 col. No way to add 80 col to older PETs. The 80 col CRT on the 8032 line was 20Khz, not 15KHz, so you couldn't just "upgrade".
TRS-80 - no native 80 column support?
TRS-80 Model I and III were 64 columns. Model 4 was native 80 col (or could also do 64 for compatibility mode, and could do double-sized chars, so also 40 or 32 chars wide). For other platforms, hmm... 1802 - either no video modes, or 1861 "Pixie" chip, which was limited to 128 pixels wide, or could have an external serial terminal, many of which were 80 columns. Pretty much any 8-bit machine that used a dumb terminal could have 80 columns, but those aren't the ones with integral color graphics. -ethan
On 6/25/2022 8:31 AM, John Heritage via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
Hey all --
Which (popular) 8-bit computers gained "easy" or even "standard" 80 column support?
Just in case it comes up, I can confirm the VIC-20 and C64 did *NOT* gain an easy or standard 80 column option. Commodore never did release anything (not that we expected them to for the home computers), though a few firms made entries for the VIC-20: http://sleepingelephant.com/denial/wiki/index.php?title=40_and_80_column_boa... and I know Batteries Included did make a BI-80 card for the 64: http://mikenaberezny.com/hardware/c64-128/bi-80-display-adapter/ All that said, C64 owners did have an "easy" and "standard" 80 column option, in the form of "Soft-80" functionality: https://www.pagetable.com/?p=901 Many of us spent quite a bit of time using this functionality (I used it in VIP Terminal and Novaterm) to enjoy BBS access in 80x25 goodness! While a 1702 monitor was required, it was very functional. Here's an "hardware example" of the Soft-80 functionality: http://biosrhythm.com/?p=1860 The most widely used Soft-80 implementation was Screen-80 from Compute's Gazette: TO keep the post on topic, the CoCo-3 did indeed have standard 80 column support (required VGA monitor) and The 80XX and B Series PETs had it.
Nice re Coco 3 - did not realize that ! Makes sense it is a "later" 8bit computer, 1986 iirc. The C64 soft80 idea I think also made it to the Atari 8bit but I don't recall any vintage software with it. Neat that it sounds like C64 at least had terminal programs using it. On Sat, Jun 25, 2022, 3:46 PM RETRO Innovations via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
On 6/25/2022 8:31 AM, John Heritage via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
Hey all --
Which (popular) 8-bit computers gained "easy" or even "standard" 80 column support?
Just in case it comes up, I can confirm the VIC-20 and C64 did *NOT* gain an easy or standard 80 column option. Commodore never did release anything (not that we expected them to for the home computers), though a few firms made entries for the VIC-20:
http://sleepingelephant.com/denial/wiki/index.php?title=40_and_80_column_boa...
and I know Batteries Included did make a BI-80 card for the 64:
http://mikenaberezny.com/hardware/c64-128/bi-80-display-adapter/
All that said, C64 owners did have an "easy" and "standard" 80 column option, in the form of "Soft-80" functionality:
https://www.pagetable.com/?p=901
Many of us spent quite a bit of time using this functionality (I used it in VIP Terminal and Novaterm) to enjoy BBS access in 80x25 goodness! While a 1702 monitor was required, it was very functional.
Here's an "hardware example" of the Soft-80 functionality:
The most widely used Soft-80 implementation was Screen-80 from Compute's Gazette:
TO keep the post on topic, the CoCo-3 did indeed have standard 80 column support (required VGA monitor) and The 80XX and B Series PETs had it.
On 6/25/2022 2:51 PM, John Heritage wrote:
Nice re Coco 3 - did not realize that ! Makes sense it is a "later" 8bit computer, 1986 iirc. Yep. And, I mis-typed, though I knew better. RGB monitor, not VGA.
The C64 soft80 idea I think also made it to the Atari 8bit but I don't recall any vintage software with it. Neat that it sounds like C64 at least had terminal programs using it.
Word Processing apps used it as well, and I think a spreadsheet app used it too.
John Heritage via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> writes:
Which (popular) 8-bit computers gained "easy" or even "standard" 80 column support? [...] BBC Micro - Looks like a native mode for 80 column support?
Acorn's BBC Model B and later have 80x32 and 80x25 monochrome text modes (the Model A has the hardware, but doesn't have enough memory to use them). The Acorn Electron also supports these modes. Also in popular UK machines: All machines in the Amstrad CPC series have at least a 2-colour 640x200 mode, so they can do 80 column text. Most models in the Amstrad PCW series -- excepting the PcW16, which wasn't really a success -- use a 90x32 monochrome text mode, giving some extra space for margins when doing word processing. -- Adam Sampson <ats@offog.org> <http://offog.org/>
Thanks! I was really curious about some of these other machines. That's slightly funny but also nicely forward looking that the BBC Micro had the mode even without enough RAM to do it... pretty good for a 1981 machine for sure. Impressive also re: Amstrad CPC since those were low cost focused machines. I know they came a bit later but that 640x200 mode is very useful for a lot of things, even if only 2 colors. Thanks for sharing! On Sun, Jun 26, 2022 at 1:15 PM Adam Sampson via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> wrote:
John Heritage via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic@lists.vcfed.org> writes:
Which (popular) 8-bit computers gained "easy" or even "standard" 80 column support? [...] BBC Micro - Looks like a native mode for 80 column support?
Acorn's BBC Model B and later have 80x32 and 80x25 monochrome text modes (the Model A has the hardware, but doesn't have enough memory to use them). The Acorn Electron also supports these modes.
Also in popular UK machines: All machines in the Amstrad CPC series have at least a 2-colour 640x200 mode, so they can do 80 column text. Most models in the Amstrad PCW series -- excepting the PcW16, which wasn't really a success -- use a 90x32 monochrome text mode, giving some extra space for margins when doing word processing.
-- Adam Sampson <ats@offog.org> <http://offog.org/>
participants (14)
-
Adam Sampson -
Andrew Diller -
Bill Degnan -
Bob Applegate -
Dave McGuire -
dave.g4ugm＠gmail.com -
Dean Notarnicola -
Ethan Dicks -
John Heritage -
Jonathan Chapman -
Kenneth Gober -
Malcolm Macleod -
RETRO Innovations -
Wil