My VCFE exhibit would like a cool Kermit host to talk to
Failing that I expect to use an IBM P70 386 portable running Procomm. (Hidden under the table of course, the modern commodity scourge of a computer that it is)
I'd say use the 386, but it need not be hidden! Times have changed from when we took over VCF East back in 2006 and I screamed "no PCs" at everyone. By having your own system you don't need to impose on anyone else.
To demonstrate Kermit from the Superbrain, I'll need a Kermit host to talk to. So... Is anyone exhibiting a machine that would be considered an early example of a Kermit host? Would you consider trying to run Kermit hosting software and permit me to hook up over RS-232? Failing that I expect to use an IBM P70 386 portable running Procomm. (Hidden under the table of course, the modern commodity scourge of a computer that it is)
Comments welcome on the approach and content for this exhibit. (I know they'll come anyway... :) )
Very easy to set up a Debian Linux on an Raspberry Pi or Next Thing CHIP, etc. At the end of my recent thread about setting up simH on a CHIP, I documented what I had to do to attach a serial terminal (or Superbrain running Kermit). Basically you get to the login prompt of the Pi, or set to autoload to Kermit, etc. http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread_record.cfm?id=664&tid=3 Bill
Very easy to set up a Debian Linux on an Raspberry Pi or Next Thing CHIP, etc. At the end of my recent thread about setting up simH on a CHIP, I documented what I had to do to attach a serial terminal (or Superbrain running Kermit). Basically you get to the login prompt of the Pi, or set to autoload to Kermit, etc.
http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread_record.cfm?id=664&tid=3
Bill
To make it more legit you could set up the Pi in simH to emulate a VAX or something vintage.
To make it more legit you could set up the Pi in simH to emulate a VAX or something vintage.
Great idea! ________________________________ Evan Koblentz, director Vintage Computer Federation a 501(c)3 educational non-profit evan@vcfed.org (646) 546-9999 www.vcfed.org facebook.com/vcfederation twitter.com/vcfederation
On 1/24/2017 12:56 PM, william degnan via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
Very easy to set up a Debian Linux on an Raspberry Pi or Next Thing CHIP, etc. At the end of my recent thread about setting up simH on a CHIP, I documented what I had to do to attach a serial terminal (or Superbrain running Kermit). Basically you get to the login prompt of the Pi, or set to autoload to Kermit, etc.
http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread_record.cfm?id=664&tid=3
Bill
To make it more legit you could set up the Pi in simH to emulate a VAX or something vintage. Oh right! Another good idea. I may not have the bandwidth to learn how one configures the software on the emulated machine, I'd have to learn that host, VAX in this case...
On 1/24/2017 12:52 PM, william degnan via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
To demonstrate Kermit from the Superbrain, I'll need a Kermit host to talk to. So... Is anyone exhibiting a machine that would be considered an early example of a Kermit host? Would you consider trying to run Kermit hosting software and permit me to hook up over RS-232? Failing that I expect to use an IBM P70 386 portable running Procomm. (Hidden under the table of course, the modern commodity scourge of a computer that it is)
Comments welcome on the approach and content for this exhibit. (I know they'll come anyway... :) )
Very easy to set up a Debian Linux on an Raspberry Pi or Next Thing CHIP, etc. At the end of my recent thread about setting up simH on a CHIP, I documented what I had to do to attach a serial terminal (or Superbrain running Kermit). Basically you get to the login prompt of the Pi, or set to autoload to Kermit, etc.
http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread_record.cfm?id=664&tid=3
Bill Thanks Bill, thats a great consideration. Maybe I'll do it on the PiDP... it but have the linux handling the transfers (I'm not sure I could get the PDP emulation to actually run a PDP kemit host, if there is one...
On Tue, Jan 24, 2017 at 01:02:55PM -0500, Douglas Crawford via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
Thanks Bill, thats a great consideration. Maybe I'll do it on the PiDP... it but have the linux handling the transfers (I'm not sure I could get the PDP emulation to actually run a PDP kemit host, if there is one...
There is a PDP-8 kermit which I have used occasionally. It probably can be made to work on he PidP8. If you need help let me know.
On 1/24/2017 7:10 PM, David Gesswein via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
On Tue, Jan 24, 2017 at 01:02:55PM -0500, Douglas Crawford via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
Thanks Bill, thats a great consideration. Maybe I'll do it on the PiDP... it but have the linux handling the transfers (I'm not sure I could get the PDP emulation to actually run a PDP kemit host, if there is one...
There is a PDP-8 kermit which I have used occasionally. It probably can be made to work on he PidP8. If you need help let me know. Kermit-12? Appears to me to be client functions only. Do I have this wrong or do you know a version that will do host functions?
On Wed, Jan 25, 2017 at 10:57:39AM -0500, Douglas Crawford via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
On 1/24/2017 7:10 PM, David Gesswein via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
On Tue, Jan 24, 2017 at 01:02:55PM -0500, Douglas Crawford via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
Thanks Bill, thats a great consideration. Maybe I'll do it on the PiDP... it but have the linux handling the transfers (I'm not sure I could get the PDP emulation to actually run a PDP kemit host, if there is one...
There is a PDP-8 kermit which I have used occasionally. It probably can be made to work on he PidP8. If you need help let me know. Kermit-12? Appears to me to be client functions only. Do I have this wrong or do you know a version that will do host functions?
Its been a while but I think you don't need a host. You can do client to client and do a send on one side and a receive on the other. I think that is how I always did it. If your superbrain has the CONNECT (TO REMOTE SYSTEM AS TERMINAL) you can use that to tell the PDP-8 to send/receive then drop back to the superbrain and do the receive/send. I have a modified version of Kermit-12 that works with the console port. Otherwise you will need a separate console and kermit connection to the PDP-8. This may not be what you are interested in demoing. The 386 will be more capable.
On 1/25/2017 12:13 PM, David Gesswein via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
On Wed, Jan 25, 2017 at 10:57:39AM -0500, Douglas Crawford via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
On 1/24/2017 7:10 PM, David Gesswein via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
On Tue, Jan 24, 2017 at 01:02:55PM -0500, Douglas Crawford via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
Thanks Bill, thats a great consideration. Maybe I'll do it on the PiDP... it but have the linux handling the transfers (I'm not sure I could get the PDP emulation to actually run a PDP kemit host, if there is one...
There is a PDP-8 kermit which I have used occasionally. It probably can be made to work on he PidP8. If you need help let me know. Kermit-12? Appears to me to be client functions only. Do I have this wrong or do you know a version that will do host functions?
Its been a while but I think you don't need a host. You can do client to client and do a send on one side and a receive on the other. I think that is how I always did it. If your superbrain has the CONNECT (TO REMOTE SYSTEM AS TERMINAL) you can use that to tell the PDP-8 to send/receive then drop back to the superbrain and do the receive/send. I have a modified version of Kermit-12 that works with the console port. Otherwise you will need a separate console and kermit connection to the PDP-8.
This may not be what you are interested in demoing. Or it may! The 386 will be more capable. but not as cool, and PiDP-8 will "represent" more period. We posted at the same time... came to a similar conclusion on the session control. Great minds think alike! Yes I need that modified Kermit-12 I think! And some help with the PiDP configuration. OS/8? Awesome. Thanks! :)
On Wed, Jan 25, 2017 at 12:42 PM, Evan Koblentz via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
And some help with the PiDP configuration.
Remember: Oscar is going to be an exhibitor.
I will be bringing my PiDP8 for sure to VCF, and workshops before that. I have imaged my build (IMD file) if anyone wants a copy, and hopefully soon I will get some sort of Kermit file transfer within PDP8 emulation to work. I have the real PDP 8 with Kermit I can experiment with too. Maybe I can transfer files from the PiDP8 to the real PDP8.....my head shall soon explode. I am also working with PDP11 emulation to set up real PDP 11. simH is the best thing since sliced bread. I have documented my progress on my site, if anyone wants to try on their PiDP8 or Pocket CHIP with simH, serial port connection to terminal, etc. b
On 1/25/2017 12:53 PM, william degnan via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
On Wed, Jan 25, 2017 at 12:42 PM, Evan Koblentz via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
And some help with the PiDP configuration. Remember: Oscar is going to be an exhibitor.
I will be bringing my PiDP8 for sure to VCF, and workshops before that. I have imaged my build (IMD file) if anyone wants a copy, and hopefully soon I will get some sort of Kermit file transfer within PDP8 emulation to work. I have the real PDP 8 with Kermit I can experiment with too. Maybe I can transfer files from the PiDP8 to the real PDP8.....my head shall soon explode. I am also working with PDP11 emulation to set up real PDP 11. simH is the best thing since sliced bread.
I have documented my progress on my site, if anyone wants to try on their PiDP8 or Pocket CHIP with simH, serial port connection to terminal, etc.
b That would be great to have the PiDP side worked out! I have a LOT to do with Superbrain side and the exhibit materials.
On 01/24/2017 01:02 PM, Douglas Crawford via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
Thanks Bill, thats a great consideration. Maybe I'll do it on the PiDP... it but have the linux handling the transfers (I'm not sure I could get the PDP emulation to actually run a PDP kemit host, if there is one...
Jeeze, of course there's Kermet for PDP-11s, Kermit-11! For every major OS that runs on them, in fact. It's great. I've run it for, well, longer than I'm prepared to admit. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
On 01/25/2017 12:49 AM, Douglas Crawford via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
Thanks Bill, thats a great consideration. Maybe I'll do it on the *PiDP*... it but have the ^^^^^^^^^^ See the context there? linux handling the transfers (I'm not sure I could get the PDP emulation to actually run a PDP kemit host, if there is one...
Jeeze, of course there's Kermet for PDP-11s, Kermit-11! For every major OS that runs on them, in fact. It's great. I've run it for, well, longer than I'm prepared to admit. ;)
*Well Jeeze*who said anything about a PDP-11?
Ack, I'm sorry Doug, my brain autocorrected PDP to PDP-11! :-/
The context was a Kermit host that I could run on the PiDP... that is one that will run on the PDP8 under simh. Kermit-12 is the only code I see for the '8s and by my read it is client only.
Yes, this is correct. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
On 1/25/2017 1:08 AM, Dave McGuire via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
On 01/25/2017 12:49 AM, Douglas Crawford via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
Thanks Bill, thats a great consideration. Maybe I'll do it on the *PiDP*... it but have the ^^^^^^^^^^ See the context there? linux handling the transfers (I'm not sure I could get the PDP emulation to actually run a PDP kemit host, if there is one...
Jeeze, of course there's Kermet for PDP-11s, Kermit-11! For every major OS that runs on them, in fact. It's great. I've run it for, well, longer than I'm prepared to admit. ;)
*Well Jeeze*who said anything about a PDP-11?
Ack, I'm sorry Doug, my brain autocorrected PDP to PDP-11! :-/
The context was a Kermit host that I could run on the PiDP... that is one that will run on the PDP8 under simh. Kermit-12 is the only code I see for the '8s and by my read it is client only.
Yes, this is correct.
Regretful, that would have been a wonderful PiDP8 host light show while the Superbrain accessed files.
-Dave
On 01/25/2017 01:37 AM, Douglas Crawford via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
Kermit-12 is the only code I see for the '8s and by my read it is client only.
Yes, this is correct.
Regretful, that would have been a wonderful PiDP8 host light show while the Superbrain accessed files.
Yes, most definitely. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net On Jan 25, 2017 1:45 AM, "Dave McGuire via vcf-midatlantic" < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
On 01/25/2017 01:37 AM, Douglas Crawford via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
Kermit-12 is the only code I see for the '8s and by my read it is
client
only.
Yes, this is correct.
Regretful, that would have been a wonderful PiDP8 host light show while the Superbrain accessed files.
Yes, most definitely.
-Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
I am almost certain one could transfer files to and from the pidp8 /superbrain (or anything) running a comms program or Kermit on the Superbrain end and Kermit for Debian on the PiDP8 end, with the lights going simultaneously. I have mine set up to do this now with a TSR light show running un the background. You don't have to be in simH to use the lights. I control my PiDP via serial port and wifi remotely to access it while a transfer is still active, etc. That's the trick. Github has some interesting stuff Bill Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net
I agree Bill, yes, with a debian Kermit host and PiDP8 simh on the pi, the PiDP8 lights will run simultaneous, but not in *response *to the data transfer. They will just run the idle, or demo light show. The lights and the Kermit activity are independent. I don't think I want to spend any time forcing the PiDP panel to show activity of the transfer. An example of dependant light acivity: Have you run Adventure on the PiDP8? I love the idle time light show, but when you use Adventure, enter commands, the LEDs change and go all aflutter in the coolest way.
Yes when I run adventure the lights are just like the real thing with the waiting for input chase the lights.
(Naturally, because the PiDP8 is doing different things to process the commands (pardon the elementary I'm trying to be complete)) That sort of LED dynamics won't happen with the activity of a debian Kermit host.
To have them look read you'd have to run Kermit-8 within simH. In that case the lights would match. 1. Access the PiDP via SSH so you don't need a monitor. Tell the PiDP at the Debian level and simH running OS/8 to use the serial port (either UART or USB to Serial) listening for Kermit requests and activate Kermit. 2. Connect the superbrain to the serial cable. 3. Use Kermit to request what you want . It has been a while, I'd have to play around with this to make it work ,but I be Dave G does this with is real PDP8's. OR, just send the file to the Superbrain, using SSH to activate Kermit and send from the PiDP rather than pull from the Superbrain. Whichever is easier. What makes it easier overall (other than getting an actual PDP8 to work) is that you don't have to worry about using a console over the serial port of the PiDP too, because you can access the PiDP via SSH. When I get the chance I will see if I can do something like this, with something I have here that can run Kermit, I don't have a Superbrain. Bill
On 1/25/2017 10:23 AM, william degnan via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
I agree Bill, yes, with a debian Kermit host and PiDP8 simh on the pi, the PiDP8 lights will run simultaneous, but not in *response *to the data transfer. They will just run the idle, or demo light show. The lights and the Kermit activity are independent. I don't think I want to spend any time forcing the PiDP panel to show activity of the transfer. An example of dependant light acivity: Have you run Adventure on the PiDP8? I love the idle time light show, but when you use Adventure, enter commands, the LEDs change and go all aflutter in the coolest way.
Yes when I run adventure the lights are just like the real thing with the waiting for input chase the lights.
(Naturally, because the PiDP8 is doing different things to process the commands (pardon the elementary I'm trying to be complete)) That sort of LED dynamics won't happen with the activity of a debian Kermit host.
To have them look read you'd have to run Kermit-8 within simH. In that case the lights would match.
1. Access the PiDP via SSH so you don't need a monitor. Tell the PiDP at the Debian level and simH running OS/8 to use the serial port (either UART or USB to Serial) listening for Kermit requests and activate Kermit. Could do. I currently don't have the serial port coming out of my PDP8 but will likely get access to that for other purposes anyway. Getting PiDP8 to use the serial port for anything other than console will be a bit of a learning curve for me, but want to get there. 2. Connect the superbrain to the serial cable.
3. Use Kermit to request what you want . It has been a while, I'd have to play around with this to make it work ,but I be Dave G does this with is real PDP8's.
OR, just send the file to the Superbrain, using SSH to activate Kermit and send from the PiDP rather than pull from the Superbrain. Whichever is easier. Seems like you are saying turn this around, PDP8 client, Superbrain host. I don't thing there is a host mode version for CP/M machines. Could be wrong. But this isn't what I want to do, I want to run an early client on the Superbrain which certainly is not a host mode program. What makes it easier overall (other than getting an actual PDP8 to work) is that you don't have to worry about using a console over the serial port of the PiDP too, because you can access the PiDP via SSH. Yes, that's how I use mine. When I get the chance I will see if I can do something like this, with something I have here that can run Kermit, I don't have a Superbrain. Bill Thanks for kicking this around! I think my prospects of a real or emulated host that is convincingly a period Kermit host is diminishing. The choice will be what is the best substitute- I don't want to spend much time on this part of the project- I need a Host mode Kermit on something... that I just hook up to and go. If someone has a PDP-11 emulator already running a Kermit Host process configured for a serial port, I'd be interested. Or I'll take a preconfigured DECSYSTEM 20 thanks! That's what Columbia used. Otherwise, it'll be that 386 running Procomm.
Mental breakthrough...
To have them look read you'd have to run Kermit-8 within simH. In that case the lights would match.
1. Access the PiDP via SSH so you don't need a monitor. Tell the PiDP at the Debian level and simH running OS/8 to use the serial port (either UART or USB to Serial) listening for Kermit requests and activate Kermit. I think I get it now. Having trouble separating in my mind system console from serial port listening for kermit requests. The serial port can do both, yes? And that would work more like the session example below? 2. Connect the superbrain to the serial cable.
3. Use Kermit to request what you want . It has been a while, I'd have to play around with this to make it work ,but I be Dave G does this with is real PDP8's.
OR, just send the file to the Superbrain, using SSH to activate Kermit and send from the PiDP rather than pull from the Superbrain. Whichever is easier.
What makes it easier overall (other than getting an actual PDP8 to work) is that you don't have to worry about using a console over the serial port of the PiDP too, because you can access the PiDP via SSH. Ah but I might want to, more like the session below. When I get the chance I will see if I can do something like this, with something I have here that can run Kermit, I don't have a Superbrain.
Bill Bill, Dave and Dave and all-
I think I misunderstood what Kermit looked like back in the day. I just read some of the user manual from '88, which shows a terminal session verbatim. I now see that it was normal for you to issue commands to both sides of the connection to coordinate operations. Not what I was thinking. I thought the other side was always there and ready, acting like a server, which may have come into play later with the SERVER command. Conclusion, the pdp-8 version of Kermit might in fact be about what the they first had for the DECSYSTEM 20 anyway. I might try to confirm that. Login banners and credentials aside, you would have had to issue both remote commands to the DEC20 and local commands to the Superbrain. You guys knew this I'm sure but didn't know I didn't know this. I may move ahead with running Kermit on the PiDP-8 with serial port to because it would be cool to see the file transfer CPU activity on the LEDs. The example from the manual that opened my eyes. This is probably how I want the Superbrain and PiDP8 to interact. A>Kermit .................................................(Run Kermit on the PC.) Kermit-MS V2.30 IBM-PC Kermit-MS: V2.30 8 Jan 88 Type ? for help Kermit-MS>............................................. (This is the Kermit prompt for the PC.) Kermit-MS>connect................................(Connect to the VAX.) [Connecting to host, type Control-] to return to PC] ...................................................................(You are now connected to the VAX.) Welcome to CUMIN, MicroVMS V4.6i (The system prints its herald.) Username: my-id....................................(Type your user ID.) Password: my-password........................Type your password. (Various greeting or notice messages are displayed.) $.................................................................This is the VMS system prompt. $Kermit.....................................................Run Kermit on the VAX. VMS Kermit-32 version 3.3.111 Default terminal for transfers is: _TXA0: Kermit-32> ...............................................This is VMS Kermit’s prompt. You are now ready to transfer files between the two machines. The following example illustrates how to send files from the VAX to the PC. Note the use of the "*" wildcard character to denote a file group. Kermit-32>send *.for...............................Send all my FORTRAN files. ^]c..............................................................Now return back to the PC by ...................................................................typing the escape sequence, in this case ..................................................................^]C (Control-] followed by "C") [Back at PC.] Kermit-MS>receive...................................Tell the PC that files are coming. After you’re finished transferring files,you must CONNECT back to the VAX host, EXIT from Kermit there, logout, and "escape back" to the PC as you did previously: Kermit-MS>connect.................................Get back to the VAX. [Connecting to host. Type CTRL-]C to return to PC.] Kermit-32> ...............................................Here we are. Kermit-32>exit..........................................Get out of VMS Kermit. $ logout.....................................................Logout from the VAX. MY-ID loggedout at 25-JAN-1988 15:12:27.85 ...................................................................^]c Now "escape" back to the PC, [Back at PC.] Kermit-MS>exit.........................................and exit from the PC’s Kermit. A> ...............................................................Now you see the DOS prompt again. The files you transferred should now be on your PC disk.
On 1/25/2017 10:23 AM, william degnan via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
Yes when I run adventure the lights are just like the real thing with the waiting for input chase the lights.
That is so cool that they arranged that... its not obvious to me how they arranged that and still did the polling or whatever for input... seems to me the accumulator would have been very busy in a way that you couldn't just have a rolling value traveling through it. I guess the times its doing other stuff is so fast the LEDs don't show it???
On Jan 27, 2017 1:08 AM, "Douglas Crawford via vcf-midatlantic" < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
On 1/25/2017 10:23 AM, william degnan via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
Yes when I run adventure the lights are just like the real thing with the waiting for input chase the lights.
That is so cool that they arranged that... its not obvious to me how
they arranged
that and still did the polling or whatever for input... seems to me the accumulator would have been very busy in a way that you couldn't just have a rolling value traveling through it. I guess the times its doing other stuff is so fast the LEDs don't show it???
much faster than the human eye B
On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 04:55:00AM -0500, william degnan via vcf-midatlantic wrote:
On Jan 27, 2017 1:08 AM, "Douglas Crawford via vcf-midatlantic" < vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote:
That is so cool that they arranged that... its not obvious to me how
they arranged
that and still did the polling or whatever for input... seems to me the accumulator would have been very busy in a way that you couldn't just have a rolling value traveling through it. I guess the times its doing other stuff is so fast the LEDs don't show it???
much faster than the human eye
Also the Fortran IV uses interrupts so it doesn't need to poll everything.
participants (5)
-
Dave McGuire -
David Gesswein -
Douglas Crawford -
Evan Koblentz -
william degnan