- vcf-midatlantic - lists.vcfed.org

New Movie on Kickstarter Narrated by Bil Herd
by Chris Fala 13 Jun '16

13 Jun '16

At the recent Vintage Computer Festival East XI during the Friday workshops, a few of you may have seen Bil screen the Commodore version of The 8 Bit Generation documentary. I was quite surprised that I was the only person in attendance who was a Kickstarter backer of that movie. Well here is your chance to help produce another documentary in the series. This one is centered around Atari. The Commodore one was excellent, so I can't imagine that this wouldn't also be great. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1744798558/easy-to-learn-hard-to-maste…

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XT-IDE rev 3 Boards Have Shipped!
by Systems Glitch 13 Jun '16

13 Jun '16

Just received an email alert that the run of XT-IDE rev 3 boards have shipped from PCBCart in China. They're coming DHL, which is usually 2-3 days China -> Here. Thanks, Jonathan

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Workshop
by Evan Koblentz 13 Jun '16

13 Jun '16

Everyone ready for the workshop tomorrow? We're starting at 10am. I'll bring doughnuts.

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books about robots
by Evan Koblentz 12 Jun '16

12 Jun '16

Remember last week we discussed books about robots in the HOPE thread? Both books arrived today. One of them, "How to design & build your own custom robot" by David Heiserman, is very deep -- heavy reading. The other, "How to build a computer-controlled robot" by Tod Loofbourrow, contains a reasonable project that we as a group can build (but not in time for HOPE unless we really bust ass.) In the preface of Loofbourrow's book, he wrote: "I want to thank the members of the Amateur Computer Group of New Jersey, whose suggestions have helped make Mike (that's what he calls the robot -EK) what he is today." Googled the author. He went on to a nice career in robotics. I sent him an intro tweet via our official VCFed account. Apparently he lives in the Boston area. Maybe we can get him down to the museum for a talk one day.

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books about robots
by Herb Johnson 12 Jun '16

12 Jun '16

The local to me College of NJ library has copies of "How to design" by Heiserman and "How to build" by Loofbourrow. I read them and they are both interesting and useful as vintage how-to robotics books. Heiserman is pre-microprocessor so it's pure TTL digital logic. It's informative about digital methods. Loofbourrow covers a lot of mechanics on joints, hands; and has lots of KIM 6502 code. Both books, and others of that late 1970's era, are good on how to make mechanical stuff from available materials - wood, metal, etc. To make robotics from stuff on hand, not stuff you buy for that use. And they lay out the logic and often the code for managing sensors and actuators; stuff that's often buried in support code today. It's informative and educational to see these things at a fundamental level. HErb -- Herbert R. Johnson, New Jersey USA http://www.retrotechnology.com OR .net

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] Happiness is...
by Jason Perkins 12 Jun '16

12 Jun '16

If you guys need a pbx I have an AT&T partner I've been trying to get rid of. Jason Perkins 313 355.0085 Sent from my Kindle On June 12, 2016, at 2:16 PM, Jim Scheef via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic(a)lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote: Mike, It would be very cool if people could bring appropriate devices - say a Tandy M100 - and "dial" into the BBS onsite. Jim -----Original Message----- From: vcf-midatlantic [mailto:vcf-midatlantic-bounces@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org] On Behalf Of Mike Loewen via vcf-midatlantic Sent: Thursday, June 9, 2016 1:13 AM To: vcf-midatlantic(a)lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org Cc: Mike Loewen <mloewen(a)cpumagic.scol.pa.us> Subject: [vcf-midatlantic] Happiness is... ...powering up a Tandy 6000HD which hasn't been run for at least 2 years, and having it boot right up to Xenix 3.2! I'm thinking of exhibiting it at VCF Midwest with my 1986 BBS software. Mike Loewen mloewen(a)cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/

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A neat way to support VCFed
by Evan Koblentz 12 Jun '16

12 Jun '16

Now that eBay knows we're a legitimate charity, anyone can post a listing and specify that X percent of the sale should be given to us. Check it out: http://charity.ebay.com/charity-auctions/charity/vintage-computer-federatio….

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Workshop breakfast tomorrow
by Evan Koblentz 12 Jun '16

12 Jun '16

For anybody who didn't stay here tonight or who is arriving tomorrow: we will meet for breakfast at the Princess Maria Dinner (on Rt. 35 in Wall Township) at 9:00am. Probably back at the museum around 10:30ish.

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"floppy drive pot luck" at the June workshop?
by Steven Michelsen 11 Jun '16

11 Jun '16

I am planning to come to the June workshop this weekend, in the hopes that someone can help me diagnose my smokin' hot (literally) Eagle PC. I found a seller on ebay who is local to me, that just sold a lot of 5.25" floppy drives for $7 each. He has 13 more of them that he was planning to put up for auction. He says that they were all pulled from PCs on their way to recycling, and they have not been tested. They are all half-height drives. He is willing to sell me the pile for $6 each. I will pick up the other 13 drives if enough folks who will be at the event this weekend are willing to put up $6 each for one or more of them. I will keep a few myself; there will be about 10 up for grabs. Who's in? The seller has given me a day to gauge your interest in this stuff. If this email violates some sort of "no commerce" mandate, I apologize. I am not looking to make anything on all this; just looking to share what seems like a good deal. Steve

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] "floppy drive pot luck" at the June workshop
by Steven Michelsen 11 Jun '16

11 Jun '16

OK I just bought the lot. Whatever is left over I can always keep or put up on ebay. I hope to be there tomorrow 1pm or so. Steve -----Original Message----- From: vcf-midatlantic [mailto:vcf-midatlantic-bounces@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org] On Behalf Of Dean Notarnicola via vcf-midatlantic Sent: Friday, June 10, 2016 3:38 PM To: vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic(a)lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> Cc: Dean Notarnicola <dnotarnicola(a)gmail.com> Subject: Re: [vcf-midatlantic] "floppy drive pot luck" at the June workshop? I'll take at least one; more if they are 360K On Friday, June 10, 2016, william degnan via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic(a)lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote: > Steve, > That's very on-topic, thanks for the suggestion. Hopefully someone > will want them b > > On Fri, Jun 10, 2016 at 3:18 PM, Steven Michelsen via vcf-midatlantic > < vcf-midatlantic(a)lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org <javascript:;>> wrote: > > > I am planning to come to the June workshop this weekend, in the > > hopes > that > > someone can help me diagnose my smokin' hot (literally) Eagle PC. > > > > > > > > I found a seller on ebay who is local to me, that just sold a lot of > 5.25" > > floppy drives for $7 each. He has 13 more of them that he was > > planning > to > > put up for auction. He says that they were all pulled from PCs on their > > way to recycling, and they have not been tested. They are all > half-height > > drives. He is willing to sell me the pile for $6 each. > > > > > > > > I will pick up the other 13 drives if enough folks who will be at > > the > event > > this weekend are willing to put up $6 each for one or more of them. I > > will > > keep a few myself; there will be about 10 up for grabs. Who's in? The > > seller has given me a day to gauge your interest in this stuff. > > > > > > > > If this email violates some sort of "no commerce" mandate, I apologize. > I > > am not looking to make anything on all this; just looking to share > > what seems like a good deal. > > > > > > > > Steve > > > > > > > -- > @ BillDeg: > Web: vintagecomputer.net > Twitter: @billdeg <https://twitter.com/billdeg> > Youtube: @billdeg <https://www.youtube.com/user/billdeg> > Unauthorized Bio <http://www.vintagecomputer.net/readme.cfm> >

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bunch-o-replies
by Jeffrey Jonas 10 Jun '16

10 Jun '16

I get the digest version so I'm replying to everything I just read: From: VAXman(a)tmesis.org > Also, the GUI -- guarantee user ignorance That's a good one *ker-quote* *** Neil Cherry: > I really see no merit to teaching some programming lingo > but I do see merit in developing a logical/programming mindset > to get from point A (input) the point B (output). I misread that as "from port A input to port B output". But I'll make my point anyway: even BASIC had PEEK and POKE for hardware specific twiddling. Most Apple ][ folks had the Beagle Brothers posters and cheat-sheets for hardware specific tweaks and configurations. Now it's all an "app" or utility. No understanding required. *** Bill Sudbrink: > We get job candidates with CS degrees from reputable universities > who don't know what a register is I'm still wrestling with how to explain "what is a register" without using the word "register". Saying it's "special memory" doesn't convey how it's so different from RAM or ROM. *** Dean Notarnicola > ... I knew plenty of Cobol programmers back in the day > who knew practically zero about how or why the underlying systems worked. My dad worked on mainframes since the 50s. Cobol was his bread-and-butter but he also had to know peripheral specifics to make them sing and dance. He still remembers details of the Analex printer required to make it work at full tilt because printing labels was one of his assignments. Things people proudly claim as "hacks" were just common requirements of the job "back then". My dad knew machine code and assemblers. He has reference cards for Autocoder and other ancient tongues because before source code debuggers, all you got was a core dump and the error exception. IBM mainframes gave an ABEND code, register dump and a core dump. The programmer manually figured out what instruction gave the error, crawling around the data segment as required to figure the full context. Huge tables were often covered in fanfold to trace all the pieces. *** chrisjpf33(a)gmail.com > And that is why we have garbage software today! Thus Java: write once, debug everywhere. I've seen embedded crapware, such as a Dlink home router that emitted the most horrendous HTML it was my displeasure to view. Despite claiming "Linux compatible", some administrative menus were IE only, as if the firmware was created by someone using M$ building blocks. *** re: not learning what's under the hood I'm kinda guilty-as-charged. I had an assignment on IBM system 3 where I took a black-box lego-building-block approach since time was limited. I learned RPG, OCL (the system's primitive JCL) and the system utilities. Everything required for program development and machine administration, but never got deeper into the machine architecture. McGuire's ribbed me for that since it's a wonderful machine. I don't think the client would've appreciated my frobbing the CE panel :-) I made up for that by learning the Z80 and IBM 1130. *** Evan: > I'd be interested in seeing how the percentage of college freshman > choosing the EE major changes over time for the past few decades. And what constitutes an EE major now vs. 'then'? I'm not up to date on ABET accreditation but degree requirements are a moving target. I had just missed learning tubes and using a slide rule. The motor/generator lab was abandoned only a few years earlier because nobody taught it. The curriculum emphasized math, solid state physics and silicon devices. Interdisciplinary engineering is now not only tolerated but encouraged. Simulation tools such as MATLAB are considered essential foundations. Today's EE degree is quite different from that of only a few years ago. As Christopher Blackmon already replied: > The college I went to (NC State Univ) > offers a CPE (Computer Engineering) degree that (at least was) > a simple hybrid of CSC & EE re: Storage is basically free now. Not when you're using a system-on-chip such as the Arduino. The popular AT-Tiny takes everything several steps smaller. *** re: Tony Bogan > 99% of the people never have and never will > know how to fix a car, or even a bike. I'm forced to agree, kinda. A 3 speed bike was my primary vehicle for many years, with daily use for a paper route. I changed snapped cables, flats, snapped chains but never had to dig into the shifter. It's reminiscent of the Monty Python "Bicycle Repairman" skit where a town of all superheroes have no such basic skills. Just consider how many folks cannot even change a car tire, depending entirely on roadside service. When it's available quickly, okay, it's nice. But there are times and places you're out of range. And then what? -- jeff jonas

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auctions update
by Evan Koblentz 10 Jun '16

10 Jun '16

As of this morning, the Apple II is above $3,000 and the Sol-20 is above $2,000. Anybody want to guess how high they'll sell?

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It's alive!
by Evan Koblentz 10 Jun '16

10 Jun '16

List has come back to life.

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List test. Please disregard.
by MailmanLists Listgnome 09 Jun '16

09 Jun '16

08:04 AEST 2016-06-10 List test. Please disregard.

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Still not working ...????
by Evan Koblentz 09 Jun '16

09 Jun '16

Sad to say that all day has gone by and I haven't heard back from the list company. :(

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efficiency, put another way
by Herb Johnson 09 Jun '16

09 Jun '16

In the context of the previous discussion - which was about gleaning any values from, or interests today in, vintage computing - my strategy is to say that personal computing and minicomputing of the 1970's and into the 1980's was a *resource poor* environment. "Efficiency" in using scarce resources is a necessity, to get something done. As gains were made in memory, processor complexity, speed and storage capacity, these resources were fairly quickly maxed out - and then improved again, and again. Some of this stuff was crude, some of it was well crafted in the McGuire sense. But at some point - certainly over a decade ago, probably more - computing for most purposes, for most people, provided more than enough resources. Processor speed topped off (any faster and they'd cook). Memory was cheap. Storage was cheap. Even the Internet became cheap and common. There's powerful languages and environments for various domains. What became expensive? *People.* Programmer time, engineering time, production time. Craft is not cheap. Even time itself has become an expense. I call the 21st century a "resource rich* period of "computing" - it's odd to talk about computing now, it's like telling fish about water, it's just part of living. My point - It's hard to conserve when there's an (apparent) abundance. Resource-poor and people-cheap, to resource-rich but people-expensive. Bringing it back to vintage computing..... So one value of preserving vintage computing, is to remind us by example and fact, about the issues of "efficiency", from a time when we had no choice but to be efficient. the tools and methods from then, can be applied in principle now. Why bother? - for the reasons that Jonathan noted, there are times and situations where convenient in-efficiency bites us in the ass. Or as Dave McGuire noted, as a matter of quality. Current resources can be overtaxed when mis-used. Old-school methods and quick fixes don't work well when scaled too large. Smart tools used by the less-informed produce un-scalable results. And so on. Resource-poor to resource-rich; and now to maxed-out or inefficient. That's the argument. So we in vintage computing may be able to offer some perspective in how to solve problems of excessive, at least inefficient, use of resources. Or not....smarter software may be smarter than the programmers, and avoid the worst of these problems. Compared to the 1970's, we have computers now to program computers, they do it better than the worst engineers and programmers. This is annoying to us, who take pride in being smarter and more efficient. Also: old stuff is clunky, boring to many. Those are the counter-arguments. Herb Johnson -- Herbert R. Johnson, New Jersey USA http://www.retrotechnology.com OR .net

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Auction update
by Evan Koblentz 09 Jun '16

09 Jun '16

Bidding on the Apple II is beyond $3,000: http://www.ebay.com/itm/191890608380 Sol-20 is around $1,200: http://www.ebay.com/itm/191890605553

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efficiency, put another way
by Dave McGuire 08 Jun '16

08 Jun '16

[sorry if you see this twice; I sent it to the "old" list in error] To put the efficiency argument another way.. It seems we (the larger "we", societally) have called into question the basic value of efficiency. Is efficiency inherently valuable? I say it is. Many people, however, say it isn't, or at least imply that it isn't, because they say things like "RAM is basically free, so it doesn't matter". (Evan, I know you were speaking as devil's advocate there) The problem is, these people are gratuitously and cavalierly stating that efficiency is no longer important in order to excuse themselves from having to know what they're doing, to absolve themselves of responsibility for creating crap results (crappy software, etc), or to give themselves an "out" by justifying their laziness. I assert that efficiency is inherently good, and laziness is inherently bad. These assertions are, I firmly believe, beyond question. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] efficiency, put another way
by Brian L. Stuart 08 Jun '16

08 Jun '16

Neil Cherry wrote: > Fast (amount of time to do), Good (quality, meets > requirements), and Cheap (overall cost). Pick any 2 I've heard this all my life, but it not really true. To some degree it does say something about the finished product, but it doesn't extend to the process of creating that product. No amount of money will buy time. Throwing more people at a project won't make it happen any faster. The reality is that you can either say what or you can say when, but you can't say both. The greatest project failures I've seen all come down to someone who can't design their way out of a paper bag thinking they can manage their way around this fundamental law. If you like, think of it like the uncertainty principle for project management. The more you know about what is going to be delivered, the less you know about when it's going to be delivered, and vice versa. The effect that the amount of money has on that is lost in the noise. BLS

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] efficiency, put another way
by VAXman＠tmesis.org 08 Jun '16

08 Jun '16

Dan Roganti via vcf-midatlantic writes: >=E2=80=8BI think the term "resource-poor" for describing the 60s, >70s=E2=80= =8B or maybe the 80s is inaccurate It is relative, depending >on your viewpoint - if you keep looking from the 21st century viewpoint >But if you were there in the thick of it back then, it was actually the >norm. So you were expected to design with those constraints Constraints >are a fact of life in engineering Dan Especially, the constraints tying you to a desk until the job is complete. ;)

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] efficiency, put another way
by Dan Roganti 08 Jun '16

08 Jun '16

I think the term "resource-poor" for describing the 60s, 70s or maybe the 80s is inaccurate It is relative, depending on your viewpoint - if you keep looking from the 21st century viewpoint But if you were there in the thick of it back then, it was actually the norm. So you were expected to design with those constraints Constraints are a fact of life in engineering Dan

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] efficiency, put another way
by VAXman＠tmesis.org 08 Jun '16

08 Jun '16

Neil Cherry via vcf-midatlantic writes: >I view efficiency as: > >Fast (amount of time to do), Good (quality, meets requirements), and >Cheap (overall cost). Pick any 2 There's more to weighing in efficiency in today's computing environments than just tossing some faster processor at the problem. Many multiple processors, VLM architectures and NUMA pose issues that can NOT be addressed simply with sloppy programming masked/cured by faster processing. However, if you and or your programmers only have experience with simple desktop type systems, these issues are as foreign a concept as tensor calculus is to a grade schooler. I have seen applications in such environments, well written too, degrade rather quickly because someone configured the environment without consideration for and of the ramifications of these modern system aspects.

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] efficiency, put another way
by VAXman＠tmesis.org 08 Jun '16

08 Jun '16

Dave McGuire via vcf-midatlantic writes: > I assert that efficiency is inherently good, and laziness is >inherently bad. These assertions are, I firmly believe, beyond >question. Dave for President!

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Fully working Woz-signed straight Apple 2 + Lee F.-signed Sol-20 for auction
by Evan Koblentz 08 Jun '16

08 Jun '16

VCFed is doing some fundraising. We're auctioning a fully working and Woz-autographed straight Apple II * and * a fully working and Felsenstein-autographed Processor Tech Sol-20. Both computers are SUPER-CLEAN. Apple II: http://www.ebay.com/itm/191890608380 Sol-20: http://www.ebay.com/itm/191890605553 We're using eBay to maximize the value since we're a non-profit. Have fun!

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] Fully working Woz-signed straight Apple 2 + Lee F.-signed Sol-20 for auction
by Systems Glitch 08 Jun '16

08 Jun '16

> Be sure to drink your Ovaltine? That's it? > A stinken' commercial? Careful, you'll put your eye out! (Amy and I laughed) Thanks, Jonathan

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] OT: people don't understand computers anymore
by Christopher Blackmon 08 Jun '16

08 Jun '16

From: Bill Sudbrink via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic(a)lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> To: 'vcf-midatlantic' <vcf-midatlantic(a)lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> Cc: Bill Sudbrink <wh.sudbrink(a)verizon.net> Sent: Tuesday, June 7, 2016 8:45 PM Subject: Re: [vcf-midatlantic] OT: people don't understand computers anymore Neil Cherry wrote: > On 06/07/2016 04:36 PM, Christopher Blackmon > via vcf-midatlantic wrote: > > Ya'll slow down a minute... I need more popcorn. > > This is the best episode of "Grumpy Old Engineers" > > I've seen in a while! > Hey, you kids, get off my work bench! <grumble-grumble-grumble> Probably doesn't know which end of a soldering iron to grab... <grumble-grumble-grumble> ---- The pointy end, right? :p cb

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] OT: people don't understand computers anymore
by Neil Cherry 08 Jun '16

08 Jun '16

On 06/07/2016 04:36 PM, Christopher Blackmon via vcf-midatlantic wrote: > Ya'll slow down a minute... I need more popcorn.This is the best episode > of "Grumpy Old Engineers" I've seen in a while! Hey, you kids, get off my work bench! ;-) -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry(a)linuxha.com http://www.linuxha.com/ Main site http://linuxha.blogspot.com/ My HA Blog Author of: Linux Smart Homes For Dummies

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] Anybody want to "make odds" on Evan's announcement?
by Chris Fala 07 Jun '16

07 Jun '16

Bil Herd will speak at VCF East XII. (I can't afford to lose a bet.) On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 5:43 PM, Bill Sudbrink via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic(a)lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote: > 1:1 - Mr. Wozniak will speak at VCF West > 10:1 - Mr. Allen will speak at VCR West > 50:1 - Mr. Gates will speak at VCF West > > > >

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Anybody want to "make odds" on Evan's announcement?
by Bill Sudbrink 07 Jun '16

07 Jun '16

1:1 - Mr. Wozniak will speak at VCF West 10:1 - Mr. Allen will speak at VCR West 50:1 - Mr. Gates will speak at VCF West

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OT: people don't understand computers anymore
by Herb Johnson 07 Jun '16

07 Jun '16

As it's quiet on the maillist, I'll ask about something on the edges of vintage computing. People today - I use the phrase "in the 21st century" - don't seem to know anything about how computers work, anymore. I'd like a little feedback, not a huge discussion (and not a gripe session), about how common that ignorance is, what we as vintage computer owners should do - once I clarify what I mean, and provide an example. It's a subject relevant to vintage computing, because that affects what we are obliged to tell people, to explain, when showing our vintage systems. It's also relevant, because one reason to preserve and operate these vintage systems, is to SHOW how these things worked, to preserve by example their fundamental nature and approach to computing (personal or otherwise). It's a preservation of a level of direct knowledge, which was necessary "then", but not necessary "now". Evidence for "now": recently, someone contacted me as part of my vintage-Mac services, with a vague request. Something close to "I'm trying to read and edit a file from a 1994 Mac, in an obsolete file format from vintage publishing software. Can you help me open and reformat that file?" It took three or so emails, to get the particulars, which are easy to describe either as hardware or software (IDE hard drive, 6300 model Mac, Aldus Pagemaker 6). At some point, some "technical service" told this person they could "read the file from the hard drive" - yet this person couldn't say if they HAD the file on "their PC". Or even clearly say they had a Windows PC or a Mac PC. I had to keep asking questions to get these basics. Why? Because they are no longer active questions. "Everyone" uses Windows (a few use Macs, some use Linux, but context quickly establishes which). Those OS's do everything by magic now, little user intervention needed. Even the computer dealers (by my experience) don't know "how" they work, they just work. On hardware, "if it fits, it works". Many people don't know how to find a file through a file directory (desktop folders); the programs "know" where they are. These people get lost, even doing backups. I think that's pretty fundamental. Oh - Ted Nelson, at a VCF-E dinner, said to me he tried to teach a computer course at a community college. He said "I gave up in three weeks, because the students didn't know (bleep) about computers". That's my experience today. I get this a lot. Again - I'm not looking for a discussion that rags on "today's computer users are idiots". That's not the point. the point is, what do we as vintage computer demonstrators do, when confronted with such people, who look at our systems? Also: I appreciate I have a point of view, not shared by all vintage computer owners. Some may see their stuff, as say "neat gaming systems that we all enjoyed at a similar time in our lives" and simply want to operate them with others who share that same experience. Whether the game is downloaded from the Internet or from an original ROM cartridge is irrelevant. Or, maybe, played on an emulator. I'm aware of that point of view. If those with such interests, have parallel experience with "people today don't appreciate 1990's video games", that would be informative to me, in this discussion. OK? These are real questions of real interest to me. How do we do, what we do with vintage computers, in this context? This is not a rag-on-morons gripe session. OK? Herb Johnson with a point of view retrotechnology.com -- Herbert R. Johnson, New Jersey USA http://www.retrotechnology.com OR .net

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] OT: people don't understand computers anymore
by Herb Johnson 07 Jun '16

07 Jun '16

I'm working up some responses, but I'm about to "throw a flag". A good part of the discussion has become "why engineers today are no good at the deep stuff". I'm a BSEE myself, I get that. But my question is not so much about "how can we reach the engineers of today or tomorrow?". And certainly not about teaching differential equations, or linked-lists. My question as posed, was how we as vintage computer owners, can reach and inform - at least answer some questions, catch the eye - of ORDINARY 21st century people who see our stuff and show some interest? To the technical point: ordinary people (but including some engineers) lack familiarity with the simple but "deep" operating principles and features of these ancient devices and software. And they lack the notion that stuff like this was repaired, even redesigned, and built - often by semi-technical people of the era? And they can *still* be repaired and operated today? So what demonstrations, explanations, and presentations, will show the context and operation and "meaning" of these 1970's, 80's and even 90's systems and artifacts? To today's mere mortals? ...all in the light of the 21st century circumstances many of you have described, either for the non-techical masses, or our recent engineering colleagues. I'll post some EE-type responses, but my point is not about them, that's the easy lift. herb BSEE 1976 -- Herbert R. Johnson, New Jersey USA http://www.retrotechnology.com OR .net

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] OT: people don't understand computers anymore
by Dave McGuire 07 Jun '16

07 Jun '16

On 06/07/2016 02:03 PM, Bill Sudbrink via vcf-midatlantic wrote: > It's a bit astonishing to me too. We get job candidates > with CS degrees from reputable universities who don't > know what a register is, can't explain how basic sorts > work or why you would even want to know. In my opinion, > the most evil phrase to come out of a software engineer's > mouth is "I don't want to have to think about...". Yup, > it's all abstracted away. You get a "container class" > with "iterators" and "find" methods and you're all set. > Not fast enough? Throw more hardware at it. > > This is raising my blood pressure... gotta stop. I know exactly how you feel. The shift toward this type of thinking has been building for a long time. It's exactly why I moved entirely into embedded systems development, where we still code in assembler a lot of the time, and we still know how computers actually work and how code actually gets executed. And for people who think this shift is a "good thing": Bullshit. This is the sort of "progress" that landed us in a position where an operating system requires billions of bytes of RAM just to boot. Get some perspective and look at the bigger picture. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] OT: people don't understand computers anymore
by Neil Cherry 07 Jun '16

07 Jun '16

On 06/07/2016 02:34 PM, Christopher Blackmon via vcf-midatlantic wrote: > And here I was thinking it was the place the cashiers stuck my money > after giving me an ever dwindling amount of "stuff." Wait, you don't use I-Pay? Bout you are old school ... (ducks for cover). -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry(a)linuxha.com http://www.linuxha.com/ Main site http://linuxha.blogspot.com/ My HA Blog Author of: Linux Smart Homes For Dummies

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] OT: people don't understand computers anymore
by william degnan 07 Jun '16

07 Jun '16

Sorry to be simplistic, but most people only do things when it's in their economic interest. We live today among an absolute glut of supply and disposable computers. There is no incentive to repair when replace is faster and cheaper. It is foolish to try to fix something that can be replaced. People are doing the "right thing" by not bothering. It may simply be that the "get under the hood" mentality has skipped a generation or two. Interest will return as soon as it becomes economic to fix things again. Very few people torture over the electronics of computing just for the heck of it, without some sort of short or long term expected return on their investment. With such a high percentage of people graduating from HS and not being able to read...the world is changing. b

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] OT: people don't understand computers anymore
by Neil Cherry 07 Jun '16

07 Jun '16

On 06/07/2016 02:03 PM, Bill Sudbrink via vcf-midatlantic wrote: > Neil Cherry wrote: >> I'm a bit old school, can't quite understand how >> those in computers can't understand the underlying >> principles of the computer (hardware and software). >> But along those same lines we're abstracting so >> much of this that we don't need to understand it >> that well. > > It's a bit astonishing to me too. We get job candidates > with CS degrees from reputable universities who don't > know what a register is, It's where the heat comes out of the floor or wall. ;-) > can't explain how basic sorts > work or why you would even want to know. In my opinion, > the most evil phrase to come out of a software engineer's > mouth is "I don't want to have to think about...". Yup, Rule of thumb, but that's supposed to come with experience, experience from knowledge and mistakes (10 aw sh*ts to 1 at-a-boy). Actually these containers/abstractions make the work possible (especially in networking). And I forget my sorts but I know why (complexity) but that won't get me a job anymore (and that terrifies me). > it's all abstracted away. You get a "container class" > with "iterators" and "find" methods and you're all set. > Not fast enough? Throw more hardware at it. Corporations don't want engineers, they want drones and with AI they'll get just that (save that rant for another day). It's the march of progress ... -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry(a)linuxha.com http://www.linuxha.com/ Main site http://linuxha.blogspot.com/ My HA Blog Author of: Linux Smart Homes For Dummies

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] OT: people don't understand computers anymore
by Dean Notarnicola 07 Jun '16

07 Jun '16

Bill, completely agreed. The depressing result is that, without underlying knowledge of the systems they are programming, these "software engineers" have no idea how to troubleshoot an issue beyond their code, or how to code efficiently. This is not an entirely new phenomenon. I knew plenty of Cobol programmers back in the day who knew practically zero about how or why the underlying systems worked. The best programmers I have known also had a very good understanding of the hardware and communication channels. On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 2:03 PM, Bill Sudbrink via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic(a)lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote: > Neil Cherry wrote: > > I'm a bit old school, can't quite understand how > > those in computers can't understand the underlying > > principles of the computer (hardware and software). > > But along those same lines we're abstracting so > > much of this that we don't need to understand it > > that well. > > It's a bit astonishing to me too. We get job candidates > with CS degrees from reputable universities who don't > know what a register is, can't explain how basic sorts > work or why you would even want to know. In my opinion, > the most evil phrase to come out of a software engineer's > mouth is "I don't want to have to think about...". Yup, > it's all abstracted away. You get a "container class" > with "iterators" and "find" methods and you're all set. > Not fast enough? Throw more hardware at it. > > This is raising my blood pressure... gotta stop. > > Bill S. > > > >

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] OT: people don't understand computers anymore
by chrisjpf33＠gmail.com 07 Jun '16

07 Jun '16

And that is why we have garbage software today! On Jun 7, 2016, at 2:03 PM, Bill Sudbrink via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic(a)lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote: Neil Cherry wrote: > I'm a bit old school, can't quite understand how > those in computers can't understand the underlying > principles of the computer (hardware and software). > But along those same lines we're abstracting so > much of this that we don't need to understand it > that well. It's a bit astonishing to me too. We get job candidates with CS degrees from reputable universities who don't know what a register is, can't explain how basic sorts work or why you would even want to know. In my opinion, the most evil phrase to come out of a software engineer's mouth is "I don't want to have to think about...". Yup, it's all abstracted away. You get a "container class" with "iterators" and "find" methods and you're all set. Not fast enough? Throw more hardware at it. This is raising my blood pressure... gotta stop. Bill S.

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] OT: people don't understand computers anymore
by VAXman＠tmesis.org 07 Jun '16

07 Jun '16

Christian Liendo via vcf-midatlantic writes: >> I liken the general lack of knowledge about the inner working of >computers to the general lack of knowledge of automobile internals > >Thank you I was going to use the same analogy. It's because they've become an appliance. You don't need to know how TV works to watch it and, in the same vein, you don't need to know how a computer works to use it either. Also, the GUI -- guarantee user ignorance -- has, IMNSHO, done much to remove the user from the system. And then, there's the education system. Kids come out of college without any understanding of how to program but, oh boy, they know all of the syntactical nuances of the latest trendy language. Assembly programming should be one of their mandatory classes. There, they will need to think through creation of an algorithm using basic computer functions. Me? I was an EE. Never to any programming classes. It was expected of us to learn it to solve EE problems. I really see no merit to teaching some programming lingo but I do see merit in developing a logical/programming mindset to get from point A (input) the pot B (output).

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Big news tomorrow night :)
by Evan Koblentz 07 Jun '16

07 Jun '16

We're going to make a big announcement tomorrow night. Stay tuned!

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] pickup in DC?
by VAXman＠tmesis.org 07 Jun '16

07 Jun '16

Ethan via vcf-midatlantic writes: >> If Bob is unable to pick the item up I might be able to help. I'm in > >Springfield, but work in Herndon. > -J > >I am in Chantilly, VA which is outside of DC. Don't make it into the >city very often. > >Still have a 40 watt 532nm YAG laser in the garage waiting for someone >to come pick it up from Arizona. Grrr. I'll come pick that up! ;)

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] pickup in DC?
by J. Alexander Jacocks 07 Jun '16

07 Jun '16

And I'm on the edge of the area, in Queenstown, MD, though I'm originally from Montgomery County, and work (sometimes) in Tyson's Corner. - Alex On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 11:55 AM, Bill Sudbrink via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic(a)lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote: > Bob Flanders wrote: > > Did we already discuss this? > > We've tried before to figure out the "DC area > subgroup"... > > I'm in Silver Spring, David G is in Bethesda... > > Bill S. > > >

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] pickup in DC?
by VAXman＠tmesis.org 07 Jun '16

07 Jun '16

Dave McGuire via vcf-midatlantic writes: > > Hey folks. Awhile back I needed some help getting a vintage >oscilloscope retrieved from Oklahoma. I'm pleased to report that, with >the help of a friend, it has been retrieved. Now that friend is >traveling in Washington DC, and he brought it with him. Is there anyone >in or near DC who might be able to meet up with him downtown and grab >it? I'll be in DC again in 2-3 weeks and can pick it up at that time. > > Thanks, -Dave Great to see it's advanced east so quickly.

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] LAST CALL! For Workshop June 11 & 12!
by Stephen A Edwards 07 Jun '16

07 Jun '16

I'm planning to arrive Saturday afternoon/evening and leaving late Sunday. I'll need a ride from the train station. Anybody else likely arriving late Saturday? Also: I'm going to bring 3 NeXT keyboard & mice (non-ADB)? The museum gets at least one pair; anybody else like the other pair? I also plan to bring some unpopulated S-100 cards (mostly serial ports) and a bare 8" hard drive. Anybody interested in these? 01-Jeff B. - Commodore 64 Robotics Kit for HOPE Exhibit 02-Evan - Lego LOGO robotics kit for HOPE exhibit (Apple II, IBM PC) 03-Alex J. - PS/2 model 70 and AT&T 6300 testing/repairs (Sunday) 04-Dean - TRS-80 Model 4, Model 4D, Model I 05-Todd - Not entirely sure, but definitely will bring my AT&T 6300 06- Bill Drom. - Plan on working on Univac 1532 mods for 60 Hz operation. possibly also clean up the 400 Hz motor gererator set. 07-Duane - same as Bill Drom. 08-Steven M. - need opinions on salvaging an Audio Visual Workshop (AVL) version of an Eagle computer. I rescued it from the back of an AV staging co warehouse. So far all it does it make smoke. Amazingly, there was a spare motherboard packed in the road case... 09-Ian - 2600's Z-100 10- Stephen E. Osborne 1, Commodore 64, Formerly depopulated Apple II motherboard. Apple II power supply. 11-

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] LAST CALL! For Workshop June 11 & 12!
by Todd George 07 Jun '16

07 Jun '16

Hey guys! Sadly, it turns out that I'm only able to make it on Sunday this time. Very bummed. I've updated my participation in the list below. Thanks, -Todd 01-Jeff B. - Commodore 64 Robotics Kit for HOPE Exhibit 02-Evan - Lego LOGO robotics kit for HOPE exhibit (Apple II, IBM PC) 03-Alex J. - PS/2 model 70 and AT&T 6300 testing/repairs (Sunday) 04-Dean - TRS-80 Model 4, Model 4D, Model I 05-Todd - Not entirely sure, but definitely will bring my AT&T 6300 (Sunday) 06- Bill Drom. - Plan on working on Univac 1532 mods for 60 Hz operation. possibly also clean up the 400 Hz motor gererator set. 07-Duane - same as Bill Drom. 08-Steven M. - need opinions on salvaging an Audio Visual Workshop (AVL) version of an Eagle computer. I rescued it from the back of an AV staging co warehouse. So far all it does it make smoke. Amazingly, there was a spare motherboard packed in the road case... 09-Ian - 2600's Z-100

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LAST CALL! For Workshop June 11 & 12!
by Jeffrey Brace 07 Jun '16

07 Jun '16

If you want to be guaranteed a table, then sign up here now! This is the current list that I have: 01-Jeff B. - Commodore 64 Robotics Kit for HOPE Exhibit 02-Evan - Lego LOGO robotics kit for HOPE exhibit (Apple II, IBM PC) 03-Alex J. - PS/2 model 70 and AT&T 6300 testing/repairs (Sunday) 04-Dean - TRS-80 Model 4, Model 4D, Model I 05-Todd - Not entirely sure, but definitely will bring my AT&T 6300 06- Bill Drom. - Plan on working on Univac 1532 mods for 60 Hz operation. possibly also clean up the 400 Hz motor gererator set. 07-Duane - same as Bill Drom. 08-Steven M. - need opinions on salvaging an Audio Visual Workshop (AVL) version of an Eagle computer. I rescued it from the back of an AV staging co warehouse. So far all it does it make smoke. Amazingly, there was a spare motherboard packed in the road case... 09-Ian - 2600's Z-100 10- 11-

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pickup in DC?
by Dave McGuire 06 Jun '16

06 Jun '16

Hey folks. Awhile back I needed some help getting a vintage oscilloscope retrieved from Oklahoma. I'm pleased to report that, with the help of a friend, it has been retrieved. Now that friend is traveling in Washington DC, and he brought it with him. Is there anyone in or near DC who might be able to meet up with him downtown and grab it? I'll be in DC again in 2-3 weeks and can pick it up at that time. Thanks, -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA

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Apparently Authentic Apple 1 on eBay
by J. Alexander Jacocks 06 Jun '16

06 Jun '16

Not sure if anyone here cares, but there is a seemingly-authentic Apple 1 on eBay, right now going for about $17k. http://www.ebay.com/itm/282050295252 Looks non-working, but reparable, to my untrained eye. - Alex

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workshop prep
by Jeffrey Jonas 05 Jun '16

05 Jun '16

Who needed EPROMS such as 2764? I have plenty to spare, but do you have a UV eraser & programmer? Who asked for Z80 chips at a previous workshop? I have more. I'm sorting my old chips, just ask if you need anything such as 16k, 64k DIP DRAM. I NEED: 0.3" chip rails. I also need help identifying chips: Universal Pioneer UM4004, but it's a 0.6" 28 pin DIP Thanks, and see you at the workshop! -- jeffj

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A few old books
by Bob Flanders 05 Jun '16

05 Jun '16

Anyone interested? For the library maybe?

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FS: Bytek S-10 EPROM Programmer Standalone/RS232 Control
by Systems Glitch 05 Jun '16

05 Jun '16

link: http://www.ebay.com/itm/272264880145 This one arrived in a lot of surplus test equipment from Virginia Tech. It had an exploded electrolytic in the power supply -- vented electrolyte all over the inside! I cleaned it up and replaced the blown capacitor with a NOS reformed unit, and it seems to power up and be functional. Unfortunately, I can't locate a manual on it, so I can't test programming functionality -- you have to select the EPROM type with a numeric code, which I don't have. Hence the listing as "for parts." Inside, this is a little 8085 based system. Your typical array of standard and MCS-80/85 family parts. I want to say it uses a regular EPROM, so that should be easy to dump if someone is interested in reverse-engineering the EPROM definitions, or writing custom firmware for it. Very clean design. I've already got a number of programmers so I figured I'd pass this one on to someone else to hack on. Thanks, Jonathan

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