May 2017 - vcf-midatlantic - lists.vcfed.org

Jason Scott rescue
by Evan Koblentz 22 May '17

22 May '17

Hey everyone. Jason Scott no longer needs the vast majority of his vintage computer collection. He's donating it to us for our museum and/or fundraising -- we'll make decisions when the collection gets to NJ. Who can help us rescue it? There are (at least) two full shelving units of hardware: https://twitter.com/textfiles/status/865598646120718337 This is located at his home in Hopewell Junction, NY. Contact me, not Jason. ________________________________ Evan Koblentz, director Vintage Computer Federation a 501(c)(3) educational non-profit evan(a)vcfed.org (646) 546-9999 www.vcfed.org facebook.com/vcfederation twitter.com/vcfederation instagram.com/vcfederation

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] obsolescence of a language, was Re: COBOL
by VAXman＠tmesis.org 22 May '17

22 May '17

From: SMTP%"vcf-midatlantic(a)lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org" 22-MAY-2017 11:07:00.75 To: vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic(a)lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> CC: Dave McGuire <mcguire(a)neurotica.com> Subj: Re: [vcf-midatlantic] obsolescence of a language, was Re: COBOL Return-Path: vcf-midatlantic-bounces(a)lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org Received: from mailmanlists.network (192.34.61.247) by great-escape.tmesis.com (V5.7-ECO3, OpenVMS V8.4 Alpha); Mon, 22 May 2017 11:07:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.34.61.247] (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mailmanlists.network (Postfix) with ESMTP id 412EF21372; Mon, 22 May 2017 11:06:28 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org; s=mail; t=1495465588; bh=mGaVWLEfX5XbSoUQ0Q2IZ4eF9ddjpjhL9B0c3tlzrRM=; h=To:References:Date:In-Reply-To:Subject:List-Id:List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive:List-Post:List-Help:List-Subscribe:From:Reply-To:Cc: From; b=ItCSTX+0ziJNkfJ0cDjMqnIwA8TzJ8Cpcr/Mmjy59JG2mLFJ7HihGbzHtUWoOB5Wy nMDjQrPJyd3LOE/EYKziTL2MJQdic62LWE/TrDOJuI4WG9sNIqbBg++d+QtacoA03f n/K/b9uZJnZfcgye8cyqdXI1jZGT8uk+1RMSa4PY= X-Original-To: vcf-midatlantic(a)lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org Delivered-To: vcf-midatlantic(a)lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org Received: from mail.neurotica.com (mail.neurotica.com [50.73.179.3]) by mailmanlists.network (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B44B4211A9 for <vcf-midatlantic(a)lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org>; Mon, 22 May 2017 11:06:26 -0400 (EDT) Authentication-Results: mailmanlists.network; dkim=pass (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=neurotica.com header.i=(a)neurotica.com header.b=AbhDIWvn; dkim-atps=neutral Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.neurotica.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EC14D95 for <vcf-midatlantic(a)lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org>; Mon, 22 May 2017 11:06:26 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at neurotica.com Received: from mail.neurotica.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.neurotica.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 78N-94myGo8G for <vcf-midatlantic(a)lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org>; Mon, 22 May 2017 11:06:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.15] (gw.neurotica.com [50.73.179.1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: mcguire(a)neurotica.com) by mail.neurotica.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id AF924D94 for <vcf-midatlantic(a)lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org>; Mon, 22 May 2017 11:06:24 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=neurotica.com; s=default; t=1495465584; bh=mGaVWLEfX5XbSoUQ0Q2IZ4eF9ddjpjhL9B0c3tlzrRM=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=AbhDIWvnsOC0AR9Ahe2Dl1pV/WXz6mdMoo2IH1rliZkcwtYs869a4V2braahHEycL OCt/tFPSTmIzRJqpkKKI/ErWDIJ0E+XI3jVuiWXjZ0ToRBm8SVhXvw8aHCpE+6lFCt fr4ARz0FnAM4e0KFh7LHWGjLDjJ/K/XSLQR7NsCg= To: vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic(a)lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> References: <17052211014274_23607106(a)tmesis.com> Message-ID: <6cf84d25-6e17-0532-07be-35b5b25f04b5(a)neurotica.com> Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 11:06:23 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <17052211014274_23607106(a)tmesis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [vcf-midatlantic] obsolescence of a language, was Re: COBOL X-BeenThere: vcf-midatlantic(a)lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic.lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org/mailman/options/vcf-midatlantic>, <mailto:vcf-midatlantic-request@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org/pipermail/vcf-midatlantic/> List-Post: <mailto:vcf-midatlantic@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> List-Help: <mailto:vcf-midatlantic-request@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org/mailman/listinfo/vcf-midatlantic>, <mailto:vcf-midatlantic-request@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org?subject=subscribe> From: Dave McGuire via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic(a)lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> Reply-To: vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic(a)lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> Cc: Dave McGuire <mcguire(a)neurotica.com> Errors-To: vcf-midatlantic-bounces(a)lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org Sender: "vcf-midatlantic" <vcf-midatlantic-bounces(a)lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> Dave McGuire via vcf-midatlantic writes: >On 05/22/2017 11:01 AM, Brian Schenkenberger via vcf-midatlantic wrote: >>> I'm not sure I'd even say that. While COBOL generally makes me want >>> to vomit, and that's a common position, that's not the point. >>> Organizations are using it for a reason: It's the right tool for their >>> job, based on whatever criteria they've set forth. I really don't think >>> it's up to any of us to assert that they're wrong. >>> >>> But apart from that, what would be the motivation for declaring its >>> obsolescence? I assume the big deal is age. So, what's the cutoff age >>> for modern vs. "obsolete", when it comes to a language? Note that I'm >>> not talking about implementations of the language, but the language >>> itself, as the COBOL compilers in common use today are current, modern, >>> maintained products. C++ is 35 years old, C is 45, Java is about 20 I >>> think. All have seen recent standardization activity, and all have seen >>> recent development in implementations. Just like COBOL. >>> >>> I don't think there's much that's necessarily "new" or "old" about a >>> language for representing and expressing data structures and algorithms, >>> in cases where the language specification has continued to evolve. Yes, >>> newer techniques (object-oriented programming) and newer habits (long >>> identifier names, use of lowercase characters, column independence) come >>> into being, but these languages continue to evolve to take advantage of >>> them. Modern COBOL implements those newer things, specifically, along >>> with many others. >> >> Object Oriented COBOL. <ducks!> > > Yup. Terrifying, isn't it? The last time I found programming that >distasteful, I was writing x86 assembler. Really, computer programming >just doesn't have to be that bad! Writing PDP-11 assembler, by >comparison, is like listening to a symphony. ;) People who have never touched PDP or VAX assembly don't know what they're missing. 8080/x86 assembly, bleachk! If that is they're introduction to assembly language programming, I can understand their typical disdain. Now, if C only had Macros. ;)

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] obsolescence of a language, was Re: COBOL
by VAXman＠tmesis.org 22 May '17

22 May '17

Dave McGuire via vcf-midatlantic writes: > > I'm not sure I'd even say that. While COBOL generally makes me want >to vomit, and that's a common position, that's not the point. >Organizations are using it for a reason: It's the right tool for their >job, based on whatever criteria they've set forth. I really don't think >it's up to any of us to assert that they're wrong. > > But apart from that, what would be the motivation for declaring its >obsolescence? I assume the big deal is age. So, what's the cutoff age >for modern vs. "obsolete", when it comes to a language? Note that I'm >not talking about implementations of the language, but the language >itself, as the COBOL compilers in common use today are current, modern, >maintained products. C++ is 35 years old, C is 45, Java is about 20 I >think. All have seen recent standardization activity, and all have seen >recent development in implementations. Just like COBOL. > > I don't think there's much that's necessarily "new" or "old" about a >language for representing and expressing data structures and algorithms, >in cases where the language specification has continued to evolve. Yes, >newer techniques (object-oriented programming) and newer habits (long >identifier names, use of lowercase characters, column independence) come >into being, but these languages continue to evolve to take advantage of >them. Modern COBOL implements those newer things, specifically, along >with many others. Object Oriented COBOL. <ducks!>

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Museum Report May 21, 2017
by Jeffrey Brace 21 May '17

21 May '17

Steve Anderson was at the museum as docent today. About a dozen visitors spread out throughout the day. One of the visitors used to be a programmer of an IBM 360. -- ======================================================== Jeff Brace ========================================================

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Museum report from yesterday
by Evan Koblentz 21 May '17

21 May '17

Extremely busy at the museum yesterday because of a veteran's event on campus. Constant stream of visitors from 11am to 6pm. We were supposed to close at 5 but I stayed because of all the people. Usual mixture of families/kids all the way to very technical people.

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Looking for a serial terminal
by Paul Rickards 21 May '17

21 May '17

Hi Folks, I'm interested in obtaining a RS-232 serial CRT terminal (mono, green or amber preferably). Something like a DEC VT or Wyse but brand not important. Contact me off-list. Cheers, -Paul Twitter: @paulrickards

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List phishing attack
by Evan Koblentz 18 May '17

18 May '17

I emailed the list provider and asked: >> Someone sent a phishing attack to our list. We didn't fall for it. :) We assume they got the addresses by mining our public archive. Is there a way to retain our public message archive but hide the addresses? They replied: >> I've edited your list's template for archived messages so that the sender's email address is no longer displayed at the top of the message. However, some of your members include their email address in their messages (typically in the footer of their message) - which we can't prevent.

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whoa
by Evan Koblentz 18 May '17

18 May '17

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Early-1977-Apple-II-Rev-0-Low-SN-A2S1-1144-w-white-… ________________________________ Evan Koblentz, director Vintage Computer Federation a 501(c)(3) educational non-profit evan(a)vcfed.org (646) 546-9999 www.vcfed.org facebook.com/vcfederation twitter.com/vcfederation instagram.com/vcfederation

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stumped...what is this keyboard enclosure for?
by Herb Johnson 18 May '17

18 May '17

> stumped...what is this keyboard enclosure for?... > claim it as worth saving historically. I sent Bill some private comments, in more detail. Briefly, I suggested it's an artifact typical of the 1970's or so, when individuals made one-off things for purposes of now-vintage computing. It's attractive visually and shows some craft and design, in my opinion. It likely represents a kind of activity at some point in time. But since it was made for one purpose, it's not unreasonable for Bill to reuse it for another purpose. (Some would dismiss it, for those same reasons.) So, he can preserve the artifact, or preserve the photo, and interpret either based on what he knows about it - his choices. Any significance would likely be happenstance. - Herb Johnson Herbert R. Johnson, New Jersey in the USA http://www.retrotechnology.com OR .net

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Re: Vol 19, Issue 17 Is This Thing On? (PA Workshop)
by SVCatITC＠aol.com 18 May '17

18 May '17

Yeah Bill I am interested. I get around your area at least 2-3 times a year with job travel. Have a customer in Avondale, up the road from you. Crossroads Diner, Wilmington is very good food AND a bar to boot. I'll start my VCF East '18 project. July would be better for me as I will be in the Midwest the latter half of June. Bill Inderrieden In a message dated 5/17/2017 12:05:10 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vcf-midatlantic-request Bill Degnan writes: I'd like to host a workshop here (Landenberg, PA) some time this Summer. Not sure what date. Prob end of June early July. If anyone has interest let me know. Bill

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