- vcf-midatlantic - lists.vcfed.org

Apple // spotted on Marvel's Agent's of SHIELD S04E09
by Jeffrey Brace 28 Jan '17

28 Jan '17

I was watching Marvel's Agent's of SHIELD Season 4 Episode 9 and the power goes out from a robot attack and they have to resort to "primitive" pre-internet methods of getting the base running without using "hackable" methods. First, I see a 5 1/4" floppy, then a glimpse of two Apple //s! It is at 32:20 I guess with so many Commodore 64's out there in TV shows that an Apple // was bound to show up. ;) -- Jeff Brace - ark72axow(a)gmail.com

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Apollo Guidance Computer
by Evan Koblentz 27 Jan '17

27 Jan '17

Fyi -- Our own Frank O., who (literally) wrote the book about the Apollo Guidance Computer, is giving a talk on this subject Sunday at 2pm. It will be in building behind the satellite dish (down the road from the main InfoAge campus -- 2300 Marconi Rd.) ________________________________ Evan Koblentz, director Vintage Computer Federation a 501(c)3 educational non-profit evan(a)vcfed.org (646) 546-9999 www.vcfed.org facebook.com/vcfederation twitter.com/vcfederation

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East XII exhibits update
by Evan Koblentz 27 Jan '17

27 Jan '17

There are 10 standard exhibits (no counting the three team exhibits which equal about 15 standard exhibits, so 25 total). The list is here: http://vcfed.org/wp/festivals/vintage-computer-festival-east/vcf-east-exhib…. Needs some big iron and S-100. :) ________________________________ Evan Koblentz, director Vintage Computer Federation a 501(c)3 educational non-profit evan(a)vcfed.org (646) 546-9999 www.vcfed.org facebook.com/vcfederation twitter.com/vcfederation

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Looking for a dialup BBS with 300/1200 baud capability
by Matt Patoray 27 Jan '17

27 Jan '17

Looking to test a modem only terminal l fixed the other day. I am looking for a BBS or someone I can dial into with the landline to test the 300/1200 baud modem. Does anyone know of anything in the US that I could call? Sent from my iPhone

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Commodore B 120-wha?
by william degnan 27 Jan '17

27 Jan '17

http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=666 An early product announcement for the Commodore "C128" Can you spot what's wrong? b

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My VCFE exhibit would like a cool Kermit host to talk to
by Douglas Crawford 27 Jan '17

27 Jan '17

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] Next workshop is February 11&12, 2017, who's coming?
by Blatboy 26 Jan '17

26 Jan '17

There is a chance I'd get a hotel that weekend, as my wife may come out. I know folks have done that... have thee recommendations for hotels in the area? Thanks! Walter http://www.jwalterhawkes.com http://www.blatboy.com like to know where/when I'm playing? Click here <http://www.blatomaster.com/mlist.php> to sign up for my list, and let the babble begin.

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Next workshop is February 11&12, 2017, who's coming?
by Jeffrey Brace 26 Jan '17

26 Jan '17

Please let me know *here *or *there*: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13GnWX3AajJRMede2N7BrVht2j26hyt4lQoO… -- Jeff Brace - ark72axow(a)gmail.com

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] Next workshop is February 11&12, 2017, who's coming?
by Dan Roganti 26 Jan '17

26 Jan '17

On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 1:53 PM, Evan Koblentz <evan(a)vcfed.org> wrote: from: Evan Koblentz <evan(a)vcfed.org> to: Dan Roganti <ragooman(a)gmail.com> date: Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 1:53 PM Oops I replied only to Dan: > > > > On 01/26/2017 01:53 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > from: Evan Koblentz <evan(a)vcfed.org> to: Dan Roganti <ragooman(a)gmail.com> date: Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 1:53 PM > sorry to interject, >>> about the VCF lodging, >>> since its getting closer >>> can members still use the Dorms, >>> or have they been removed already >>> >> >> Removed? Not at all. We use the dorm building for all of our events now. >> >> Jeff B. and/or I will send a separate message about staying there during >> VCF East. >> > actually, you did it twice :) this time I replied to the list I still think it's the weird glitch on the List server or did you intentionaly just click on the plain 'Reply' button cause if you don't click Reply-all it only goes to the individual person cause i see these details below in the header info inside my email plenty of times ---- from: Dan Roganti <ragooman(a)gmail.com> to: Neil Cherry <ncherry(a)linuxha.com> cc: vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic(a)lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> date: Fri, Jan 20, 2017 at 1:10 PM subject:Re: [vcf-midatlantic] cross platform coding for the Apple ][ mailed-by:gmail.com ----- the "vcf-midatlantic(a)lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org" should always be in the TO: field and then there's another recipient in the CC: field so that person would get 2 emails instead the List server really shouldn't have another recipient, either CC or BCC like there is in this example

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Looking for external disk enclosure
by Jason Perkins 26 Jan '17

26 Jan '17

I'm looking for an enclosure I can mount my extra Lisa Widget disk in. The disk has normal 5.25 mountings on the bottom, but is taller than a normal full height drive by a couple inches due to the controller boards mounted on top. Does anyone have an old enclosure kicking around they'd want to part with? I'd prefer one that's beige to match the Lisa's plastics. Thanks! -- Jason Perkins 313 355 0085

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Festival archives being posted
by Evan Koblentz 26 Jan '17

26 Jan '17

Several people asked me about archive pages for past Vintage Computer Festival events. Much of the information was lost during a rebuild of the former Festival owner's web site, however, much of the same information was also available at Archive.org. Tonight we posted about 50% of the basic date from past Festivals -- when, where, who -- at http://vcfed.org/wp/festivals/archives-show-summaries/. (It would be a HUGE amount of work to post the exact web sites from past Festivals, and there's not much point to saving the logistical information about what time of day people will speak, etc., so what we are posting seems like a good balance.) We hope to get the remaining 50% onto the page soon. PS. You'll notice that the page is being populated from the bottom-up. No particular reason why. ________________________________ Evan Koblentz, director Vintage Computer Federation a 501(c)3 educational non-profit evan(a)vcfed.org (646) 546-9999 www.vcfed.org facebook.com/vcfederation twitter.com/vcfederation

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Introduction from Newark, DE
by Paul Rickards 26 Jan '17

26 Jan '17

Hi all, I've recently joined the VCF Mid-Atlantic list and thought I would introduce myself (hope that's OK). I'm from the Newark, DE. My interests started with collecting 8-bit home computers, printers, accessories-- usually the ones that I couldn't have when I was younger. But my interests stretch well beyond those now. I'm a computer programmer by trade during the day but work on collecting, repairing and restoring vintage computers any time I can. I'm also currently into vintage pen plotters ever since I had a Commodore 1520 when I was younger. (I recently designed a 3D printable X/Y replacement gear (the old ones split) that can be found on Shapeways.) I'm also an avid photographer. I've missed the VCF East in NJ several years in a row but am committing to it this year. I'm also enjoying the conversations on the list. I'm on Twitter @paulrickards if folks care to chat there. I sometimes blog projects I've worked on (converting a SX-64 to a DX-64 dual drive for example) here: http://biosrhythm.com/ Anyone else in the Northern DE area? Cheers, Paul Rickards

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Huge collection F/S out west
by Evan Koblentz 26 Jan '17

26 Jan '17

Our good friend Sellam Ismail -- founder of the original Vintage Computer Festival -- is selling his whole collection: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?55964-Selling-Off-the-Collection For anyone wondering: VCFed does not purchase artifacts, and Sellam is not in position to donate to us. There are two things on his list that our collection is conspicuously missing: the Sphere 1 and the Poly 88. Quite serious: would anyone consider purchasing either/both of those from his collection and donating them to us? It would be tax-deductible. ________________________________ Evan Koblentz, director Vintage Computer Federation a 501(c)3 educational non-profit evan(a)vcfed.org (646) 546-9999 www.vcfed.org facebook.com/vcfederation twitter.com/vcfederation

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Service a scope and solder/desolder station setting recommendations
by Neil Cherry 25 Jan '17

25 Jan '17

I was working on my Atari 600xl the other day and was using the scope to see if it was working. I get a nice clean color TV signal (sorry no working NTSC TV) until I bumped the scope and it went out of sync. No amount of fiddling with the buttons and dials helped get back that pretty signal but I could see it was still there. So now I want to service the Tektronics scope but I'm not sure where to start. Next up on the top 10 list is: does anyone have pointers for solder types and temperature setting for solder and desoldering stations? I have a 30 year old Weller station that heats perfectly for older 60/40. I have a newer Hakko (?) with 2 tips (I think 700 and 800F). And I have the cheap (but working) Aoyue which is adjustable. Obviously leaving it turned up to 11 (480) is not a good idea as that will just burn it out and damage the work. Any pointers, recommendations, links ... etc? Thanks -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry(a)linuxha.com http://www.linuxha.com/ Main site http://linuxha.blogspot.com/ My HA Blog Author of: Linux Smart Homes For Dummies

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OT: repurposing Palm PDA, Sony PSP, Nintendo DS, Mattel Juicebox
by Jeffrey Jonas 25 Jan '17

25 Jan '17

Definitely off topic for being "too new" I'd love to keep my "old" stuff running in new ways. Does anyone have archives of apps, hacks or development tools for - Palm PDAs, including Handspring Visor I'd love to recreate the development tools I had at a previous job: CodeWarrior compiler with plenty of libraries for cross platform development. That was before Freescale destroyed CodeWarrior to sell only their chips :-( - Sony PSP, particularly network apps such as VPN and terminal emulation - Nintendo DS: I think there was a cartridge specifically for making it hackable - The Mattel Juicebox was the darling of the Linux world for a week or 2 but then quickly abandoned. Same story for the iOpener network appliance. - Network appliances: 3com Audrey, Netpliance iOpener Were any of you into that scene? -- jeff jonas

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Perhaps I asked the wrong question... FORTH
by Herb Johnson 24 Jan '17

24 Jan '17

On my Web site: stuff about FORTH. FORTH was one of many computing languages used in early microcomputing. It was implemented in a few thousands of bytes, and as an interpreter it could be extended. Memory was expensive so these were good attributes. It was also a monitor program; a number of 1980's commercial computers had a FORTH boot monitor. COSMAC 1802 ----------- www.retrotechnology.com/memship/figforth_1802.html FIG produced a series of 8-bit FORTHs in the late 1970's. www.retrotechnology.com/memship/hhc_forth.html Hand-Held Computer (HHC) he constructed in the late 1970's from a COSMAC 1802 processor and supported with a FORTH-79 based monitor and calculator program he created. I and others disassembled his FORTH and binary, without the Windows development system he abandoned later. www.retrotechnology.com/memship/8th.html A reduced FORTH for the 1802, which he called "8th". http://www.retrotechnology.com/memship/amsat.html IPS is a threaded language and develoment enviroment, similar to Forth. It was used to develop the programming on the Oscar Phase 3 satellites which used 1802's and later other processors. These were early amateur-radio satellites. IPS was in use for other satellite development. http://www.retrotechnology.com/memship/mem_basys.html A simple 1802 wheeled robot which ran on BASIC or 8th. Intel 8080 ----------- http://www.retrotechnology.com/restore/prob_solv.html I resurrected a S-100 Problem Solver System. I noted the boot diskette had the STOIC operating environment. I recalled STOIC as one of many packages distributed with CP/M programs; Both the recent and prior owners had worked with the STOIC language. Rich explained the FORTH roots of STOIC and we discussed our histories with FORTH. [Links about STOIC are at the end of the Web page.] http://www.retrotechnology.com/dri/kildall_interview_atwork.htm Gary Kildall has an opinion about FORTH and its adherents. Kildall's academic work was in computing languages; of course PL/M was his creation. He developed CP/M and founded Digital Research. HErb Johnson

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VCF East exhibitors, start signing up
by Evan Koblentz 24 Jan '17

24 Jan '17

http://vcfed.org/wp/festivals/vintage-computer-festival-east/vcf-east-exhib… The three teams equal about 10-15 regular exhibits. There are six regular exhibits so far. There is room for plenty more!!! Please start signing up your exhibits.

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Museum report
by Evan Koblentz 22 Jan '17

22 Jan '17

Busy day. There was an InfoAge group leader's meeting at 9am (IA management didn't say anything new), we had a pre-scheduled visitor arrive at 11:00. for a tour, and another visitor (Henry from ReactiveMicro.com who hadn't seen us since the old museum) at 2:00. There were also several regular visitors today.

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] Perhaps I asked the wrong question... FORTH
by Brian L. Stuart 22 Jan '17

22 Jan '17

On Fri, 1/20/17, Dave McGuire via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic(a)lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote: > Schweet. > Have you ever seen CamelForth? I've only taken a cursory look at it, but never actually run it. I've generally heard good things about it though. > Brian, speaking of PDP-11 Forths, have you seen SOL-11? I had not. But it turns out that I'm planning to show something similar running on a little LSI-11 in a BA11-VA box. I'm going to try to dust off something I wrote *mumble* years ago back in college. For several years, the August issue of Byte was dedicated to a particular language. The year I graduated from high school it was Forth. So I arrive at college with the latest issue of Byte in hand and am thinking this looks like kind of a cool language. Of course, I ask if we've got a Forth implementation on the school's 11/70 to play with. When the answer was no, the natural response was, "ok, I'll write one." That was the genesis of a college nickname, Sir Forth. Senior year comes along and I decide to write a small OS for my CS senior project. That Forth implementation becomes the shell/application language for the OS. So it's long overdue to be returned to a running state. BLS

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HP rack door hinges needed
by Evan Koblentz 21 Jan '17

21 Jan '17

VCFed got this during the workshop weekend: http://vcfed.org/evan/hpmini.jpg We have the left/right cabinet doors, but the cabinets are missing all of the hinges where the door pins sit. Does anybody have spares?

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Forth exhibit (was Re: Perhaps I asked the wrong question... FORTH)
by Brian L. Stuart 21 Jan '17

21 Jan '17

On Fri, 1/20/17, Jim Scheef <js(a)sdf.org> wrote: > An exhibit on Fourth should explain the stack archtecture and other things > that make Fourth unique (and a write-only language). An excellent topic. Indeed. My initial plan is to have a poster that explains the basic idea of a stack and how a stack language works. Then if time permits, I want to write a little tutorial running on one of the machines running Forth that covers things a little deeper. BLS

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] C Compilers (was Re: Perhaps I asked the wrong question...)
by Brian L. Stuart 21 Jan '17

21 Jan '17

On Sat, 1/21/17, Dave McGuire via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic(a)lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote: > Innnnteresting. I've played with clang, and eventually started > asking "what's the point?"...but kenc is something I've never heard of, > and Ken Thompson's toenail clippings know more about programming > languages than I ever will, so I'd like to look at that compiler. > Does/can it target bare-metal ARM7/Cortex-M families? Yes, it does. Now, I'll admit that I haven't played with the packages that are targetted at general use for e.g. Linux. However, someone recently said they were successful in biulding the Pi version of Plan 9 using it. And I did use the version that is packaged as part of Inferno to do an Inferno port to a little ARM box created by Sun Labs. Along the way, I added an output format to the linker so it would directly produce the format the SunSPOT expected. One unusual thing you'll find about these compilers is that the division of responsibility is a little different than is typical. The object files are actually in a form of intermediate code (though not portable between architectures) and the actual code generation is done in the linker. BLS

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] Perhaps I asked the wrong question... FORTH
by Brian L. Stuart 21 Jan '17

21 Jan '17

On Fri, 1/20/17, Evan Koblentz <evan(a)vcfed.org> wrote: > Do it! Registration is here: There definitely seems to be a lot of interest in a Forth exhibit, so my third appearance at VCF-E will be forth. I just registered it on the VCFed site. For the next month, my time still needs to be primarily ENIAC focused, but that should still give me plenty of time to put together the exhibit I've got in mind. BLS

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link-editor fun and games before virtual memory (was C compiler)
by Jeffrey Jonas 21 Jan '17

21 Jan '17

> The IDE isolated the programmers > from full control of the compiler and its code generation options. Once upon a time, programmers were REQUIRED to understand and sometimes manually configure the link-editor. That allowed for things like load-no-call: load debugging modules/subroutines that were not called anywhere, but were available when debugging. Before virtual memory, there were overlays. The IBM 1130 made that simple with LOCAL (load on call) and SOCAL (system call load on call) directives. But only one was loaded at a time: one load-on-call could not call another. I think the IBM 360 allowed for specifying a tree of nested overlays. When using the PIC18, I had to configure the linker to load my "C" code around the boot loader. 'tis the joy of not using absolute addresses for everything. .csect is the IBM pseudo-op for such things: http://www.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/ssw_aix_71/com.ibm.aix.alangref/… Everyone had their own names for such stuff :-( Anyone who hand-coded assembler did absolute addressing. I worked on a project where the assembler did not generate relocatable code. Everything was absolute addressing, requiring the build-meister to manually map out memory for all modules, storage sections, temporary scratch-pad areas, etc. It was easy to trash memory when anything changed size. -- jeffj

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] Perhaps I asked the wrong question...
by Devin Heitmueller 21 Jan '17

21 Jan '17

On Jan 20, 2017 7:59 PM, "Neil Cherry via vcf-midatlantic" < vcf-midatlantic(a)lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote: On 01/20/2017 01:47 PM, Dave McGuire via vcf-midatlantic wrote: > On 01/20/2017 01:35 PM, Steven Toth wrote: > If you're writing a large software stack, need to integrate with other >> frameworks or libraries, an IDE is the way to go. >> > Not picking on Steven, but on the dislike of most IDEs. One more thing, and it's really at the top of my list since I tend to be very OCD on engineering related things ... it makes a @#$!%^& mess of the code indentation. I almost always know when someone uses an IDE because the code will end up getting some weird identation that no programmer could ever come up with. You can generally tell a programmers preference for the way they code but only an IDE can mess up indentation like that. if(blah) { if (!red) { sub_function(); subfunct2(); } } else { subfunct2(); } (Wow that was painful to type and look at) I'm not arguing for or against IDEs but this isn't really a fair criticism of IDEs. Such formatting issues are usually a difference in an editor's defaults with regards to tabs vs spaces, and it's common when you have any project worked on by users of multiple text editors. Code can look just as crappy in emacs after a vi user comes along and makes changes. There are ways to mitigate such issues through specification of tab/whitespace handling at the file or project level, but they are not uniformly supported by all editors. The real frustration I have is not about what the "right" answer is about tabs but rather that after decades the editors haven't arrived at a uniform standard for specifying the whitespace policy and having all the editors know how to parse and abide by it. In short, I agree with your frustration but an IDE user is just as likely to see their source code mangled by your non-IDE editor of choice. Devin

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] Perhaps I asked the wrong question...
by Kenneth Seefried 21 Jan '17

21 Jan '17

From: Neil Cherry <ncherry(a)linuxha.com> > >This new is better is what got Wellfeet/Baynetworks in trouble. Instead >of providing an ASCII interface to the command line they went menu (not >terrible) or snmp commands (ARGH!). Later they dropped the menu and went >full Windows GUI. Which was useless when the network as down. > Ahh...Wellfleet's "Site Manager". I'm sure in some Bostonian ivory tower, "everything is an SNMP OID and thou shalt only speak SNMP to it" sounded like a great idea. What they delivered was a steaming pile of bad design choices, wildly inconsistent behavior, poor documentation and crippling bugs (new and different in every release). To this day it's my go-to example of truly awful, how not to do it, user interfaces. I've rarely found one worse. KJ

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Mac 128k M0001 for sale
by Joseph Oprysko 21 Jan '17

21 Jan '17

I'm looking to part with my Mac 128k. Rather than selling it on eBay, I'd rather it go to someone I know will appreciate it. It's fully functional, comes with mouse, keyboard, manual, original boot floppy, Apple Mac carrying case, and external floppy drive. It's the exact same Mac 128k that appears in the Smithsonian Channels "The Real Mad Men of Advertising" which was shot last summer. If you're interested, please email me off list with an offer, I can also send pictures. Thanks, Joe

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simH (was Programming)
by william degnan 21 Jan '17

21 Jan '17

Evan/docents at the museum, Don't forget simH. I really like this platform for OS monitor, DOS, and programming of emulated hardware environments. I have been putting simH on the new gen of single board computers and they work great for demoing by connecting to a serial device. Low power you can run off a battery. I like the Next Thing Co CHIP as well as the Rasp Pi Zero. So cheap! The CHIP is $9.95 and comes with wifi, bluetooth, storage built in. Ready for headless serial port access out of the box. Network and control remotely. For cases that one wants to avoid harming or simply does not have working vintage hardware it works pretty well. For example I Know Corey was talking about attaching the PiDP8 with its simH emulation of PDP 8 OS/8 to a printer for museum demos of.the real PDP 8. There is other hardware in the museum that could be demoed that way, such as the VAX, Altair, SWTPC 6800, Sol20, etc. where running the real thing has proven to be not practical and prone to failure. Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] Perhaps I asked the wrong question...
by Mike Willegal 21 Jan '17

21 Jan '17

I agree that learning "C" using K&R in a shell might be a good way to start. Installing some kind of language support shouldn't be too much of a problem on any modern system. I'm guessing that GNU "C" comes installed with most Linux implementations. On OS/X you can install Xcode pretty simply. You don't need to use the Xcode IDE, but it is the easiest way to install the GNU tools that you need. I forget details, but while installing, I think you specify install the GNU C extensions. Once installed, you go to OS/X's terminal and type "cc" from there. I use OS/X terminal all the time for cross compiling 6502 or 8008 applications. Those cross compliers are "C" programs which are usually easy to tweak plus I've written a number of "C" language utilites to convert between archaic or unusual file formats. One caution is that modern incarnations of "C" may, by default, enforce some additional type checking restrictions and the like that break the examples in K&R, so it may become difficult for a beginner to figure out why the tutorial doesn't work. In case you want to go whole hog retro, I'll tell you that for a brief while, I made my living programming in "C" on a dual 5 1/4" floppy based Compaq luggable. I can't remember the name of the compiler, but it worked pretty well. We used a standard word processor of the day, perhaps it was WordStar, for source file editing. Not really any more difficult than using a shell in a modern system. Around the same time, I also experimented with a "C" implementation on the Apple II, and, by comparison, it was very clunky. I've been slowly learning to make OS/X applications over the past few years with xCode in Objective C for my SCELBI emulator app. Moving it over to the iPhone and iPad is in the cards. I'll tell you that the learning curve is extremely steep, but once you reach some level of proficiency, the power of the environment starts to get addictive. This is probably heresy on this forum, but I'm temped to say forget assembly and other archaic languages and just learn how to make IOS or Andriod apps. Surprisingly, the skills aren't really all that transferable from one to the other. Some basics are similar, but there is a great gulf of 30 plus years of technology separating the two worlds. Regardless of what approach you take, unless you have an idea of some concrete application that you need to write, it's going to be extremely difficult to become very proficient. Your first step should be deciding upon the end application that you REALLY need to have. regards, Mike Willegal

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C Compilers (was Re: Perhaps I asked the wrong question...)
by Brian L. Stuart 21 Jan '17

21 Jan '17

On Fri, 1/20/17, Dave McGuire via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic(a)lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote: > Some say there's nothing wrong with that, but there actually is quite > a lot wrong with it. I cut the size of the resultant binary down by > almost 80% by ditching an IDE in a product whose firmware I inherited > several years ago. The code size was important not only because the > program memory space on the processor was nearly full and they > wanted additional features, but also because the firmware updates were (and > are) sent out via the cellular data network. Until I fixed it, a global > firmware update cost about $20,000 to $22,000. Now it's about $3,500 > due to the reduced binary size. Why? The IDE isolated the programmers > from full control of the compiler and its code generation options. In > other words, they discovered "what to click to make a program", and > clicked it. Without learning a damn thing about what they were > actually doing. Amen! Brother. > Nearly all of the world's C compilers, past and current, are command > line systems. And nearly all of them are actually GCC under the covers, > for everything even remotely modern. There are two primary exceptions. First is clang, which is just as big an unmanagable as gcc. The other is kenc. Ken Thompson wrote a new suite of compilers as part of the Plan 9 project. These compilers are also available as part of Inferno. Later they were ported to work on more POSIX-like environments for the Go project, and now a number of Linux and other distributions include packages to install kenc. His compilers are much leaner than the mainstream ones, they have a much cleaner model for cross-compiling, and Ken's taste in extensions makes the ANSI committee look like Philistines. BLS

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Perhaps I asked the wrong question...
by Evan Koblentz 21 Jan '17

21 Jan '17

After posting my assembly-for-newbs question, it occurred to me that perhaps I should be asking this instead: with no experience other than LOGO and then BASIC, which (period 1980s) language should I learn next? Was it normal to go from BASIC directly to assembly (is BASIC enough preparation), or were people better off getting some in-between experience with a language such as Pascal or something else? Keep in mind that my natural aptitude is liberal arts, not math. :)

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cross platform coding for the Apple ][
by Dan Roganti 21 Jan '17

21 Jan '17

Anyone have some success with getting the right tools to set a workflow for building cross platform coding on the Apple ][ ? I found some tools already which I hope someone can give us some advice to build a practical workflow. While helping Evan on his robot project, the traditional method of coding directly on the vintage platform becomes a burden when trying to collaborate over the phone, email or online. Because you can't see what's on their screen and you can't share the screen online as with today's desktops. No amount of chit-chatting to summarize the code without looking at it directly is going to help. For the moment, he wants to work with Applesoft Basic, and perhaps later once the bugs are worked out and the project is running, then dive into some 6502 assembly. In the past, because it's simply not practical to do that, I once had Evan and Jeff shine their phone's camera over the computer screen during a video conference to help debug the code, it worked :) But I suggested they get one of those goose-neck mounts to hold the phone or webcam so they can type faster Now I recommended that we change to the cross platform coding because it helps to share the code, share the work, especially when it comes time to debug any problems while we collaborate on this project from long distances. And these situations happen often on a new project, with new hardware, etc. So it becomes practical over the phone, email or online. I do this already with my C64 assembly coding project to collaborate with Jeff and others at long distances. But now I'm not sure if my google-foo has lots of static for this Apple ][ topic because I never had so much trouble finding enough info, versus the time when I had to setup one for my C64. It did take some time, but mostly to get familiar with the software tools out there which is specific to that machine. Then after it just took some time to iron out the steps between each tool. For the Apple ][ this is what I found so far 1. Editor = I think any editor would suffice here, maybe there's one specific for the Apple][ ? 2. Disk Imager = AppleCommander[jav], CiderPress[win], Ominvore[win], DiskBrowser[win] 3. Emulator = AppleWin[win], LinApple[nix]---> both are the same port 4. Floppy emulator = ADTPro[jav] via serial port Now these tools work as described, but there's still some glitches in the workflow problem#1, I can open any disk image with the tools mentioned. But then when I try to extract the Basic file on my desktop, the tools give you 2 choices, either the original Apple format, or text format. The original format is so you can later import the file to the disk image. But then it's not possible to edit the file cause I can't locate an editor which can view the file in the first place. And the viewer in the disk imagers don't let you edit file. problem#2, With AppleCommander, i can extract the Basic file. It's always exported as a text file. But then it insert extra CR's on every line. I can edit the code. then import the file back into the disk image. I can verify the code is good when I view this in the disk imager. And then I load this into the emulator. But when I list the file, there's always some glitches with extra lines of garbage text, either at the beginning or end, maybe in the middle. So we can do the basic things[summary], load disk images, make disk images, view files in the disk images, extract files from the disk images[not 100%], But then, we can't successfully import the files from the desktop with the Basic code, into the disk images for the emulator or live hardware, even though the viewer in the disk imager verifies its there and readable, the listing viewed in the emulator shows the glitches This is what we're facing and we like to find somebody that can give us advice on this ------------------- For the C64, I use Assembly coding. It became easier to build a practical workflow. I just use an editor, then a script for the Assembler to build the code, the symbol table, listing file, even a debug listing for the emulator, so I can set breakpoints on the labels from the code when debugging, and even the image file so I can add it to the disk image. Then there's a 2nd tool to build the disk images for the Commodore systems. And then a very powerful emulator called VICE, which handles every single computer made by Commodore -- to load the disk images for testing/debugging the code. And the same disk image is stored on a SD card to load into the C64 hardware for live testing. For Assembly coding, it's only 5 tools for cross platform coding on the C64 Plus there are some other tools which you use in parallel, for creating graphics, sprites and sound effects, and SID music 1. Editor 2. Assembler = DASM 3. Disk Imager 4. Emulator = VICE 5. uIEC = SD card floppy For those that use Basic coding, it's even simpler. Lots of people have been very progressive in building powerful coding tools for the Commodore scene. So there's one called CBM studio. This replaces #1, #2, and #3. 1. CBM studio 2. Emulator = VICE 3. uIEC = SD card floppy Some use the CBM studio for Assembly coding. But as you know with Assemblers, not all are compatible, because of their syntax style. So I try to avoid stuff like that. Because on one project, I tried to rewrite this network game, it was coded using DASM and I wasn't about to edit 100's of lines of code in a dozen files just for that, I had enough work ahead of me already, so I just kept using my editor and that assembler. ----------------------------- And there there's always the issue that many of the tools are not built for multiple desktop platforms. I don't fault the developers for this. Because there are some very good and powerful software tools for all aspects of the machine, for graphics hardware, sound hardware, etc, not just assembly coding. So I just keep using tools like VMware to run the different tools. You have to give lots of credit to the many people who devote so much time to building these tools. Because it really promotes a wide avenue for other people to use these to get very creative. I noticed there are always multiple types of people, this is just one example. People who know how to build the right tools for you, and people that get very creative by using the right tools. Example, If you want to build your own house, you like to find the right tools, rather than getting the "forge and anvil" to build your tools -- which can already be done better by those experts who devote their time -- so you can spend more time being creative on your house design. Dan

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A neuroscientist analyzes a 6502.
by Derrik Walker v2.0 20 Jan '17

20 Jan '17

Interesting read ... http://www.economist.com/news/science-and-technology/21714978-cautionary-ta… - Derrik Derrik Walker v2.0, RHCE dwalker(a)doomd.net "Those UNIX guys, they think weird!" -- John C. Dvorak

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] Perhaps I asked the wrong question... FORTH
by Brian L. Stuart 20 Jan '17

20 Jan '17

On Fri, 1/20/17, Dave McGuire via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic(a)lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote: > If you want a really nice Forth workstation, pick up a nice > SPARCstation-IPC or -IPX and just don't boot it! ;) I should take one of my IPCs and dedicate it to that :) Come to think of it, maybe that's what I should do for VCF this year: a Forth exhibit. I should easily be able to have 3 or 4 different Forths running on a table. At a quick thought, I should be able to have it running on a 6809, a 68HC11, a SPARC, and an LSI-11. I had been thinking about doing a follow-up to last year's ENIAC exhibit but was worried that might be too repetative. BLS

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Sucessful workshop January 14&15, 2017
by Jeffrey Brace 20 Jan '17

20 Jan '17

Just wanted to write a quick e-mail to thank all those who attended the workshop. It was another successful workshop. It was a good idea to have the workshop in the bigger space. It accommodates more people. A lot of things got fixed and there was a lot of sharing of knowledge and expertise. Here are some phones from my iPhone which are raw, unedited and not the best quality (sorry I forgot to bring my Nikon): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B9SJLfGXYiG5LS1hMU8yX19fQWM?usp=sha… If anyone wants to chime in on what the worked on, their progress and what they need to work on next. -- Jeff Brace - ark72axow(a)gmail.com

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the programmer's desk
by Jeffrey Jonas 20 Jan '17

20 Jan '17

I inherited most of the stuff from my dad's desk: coding pads, flowchart template, reference cards, books, periodicals, computer specific rulers and thingies. The only electrical thing on a programmer's desk back then was the lamp! Maybe a calculator for working out address offsets. I'd say Gesswein is the most likely to demonstrate using a PDP8 coding pad and hand-coding the assembler, then TOGGLING IT INTO THE FRONT PANEL (he probably can do most of that in his head by now!) The KIM, SYM and such made it a LITTLE easier with hexadecimal keypad & 7-segment LEDs. Alexander Pierson: > At the same time I was wrestling that, > I did a historical paper on Pascal. > In the process of researching it, > I think that was the first time I was exposed to the concept > of writing out a program by hand with pencil and paper > before entering it onto a computer. That's what I learned back in high school. A process that's served me well. THINK OUT the program first. PLAN all the tests to have confidence it really works. Niel Cherry's reply confirmed the merit of that work flow. And it let me work at home, away from the computer center. Keypunches were shared machines. You didn't compose at the keyboard. You minimised time at the machine by planning everything in advance, punch the cards as fast as possible and submit the job. > That blew my mind, seeing as never thought of a time > before text editors and glass terminals. It was an important turning point: from machine time being rare and valuable to people-time being more important. > I'm so used to instant gratification of finding syntactical errors > and compiling at the drop of a hat. Which is a more productive use of your time & attention. Be grateful! Mike Loewen: > Welcome to the early 1970s. Colleges and high schools were still using punched card batch in 1977 and afterwards. The infrastructure was there: rooms of keypunches that only needed outlets vs. expensive terminals (the ADM3a was "cheap" at just under $1,000) and data lines for each terminal. > Write your FORTRAN program down on coding forms: That's EASY compared to RPG II where every card type was a different format that was extremely column sensitive. > Then head to the keypunch room and punch your deck. > Take it to the dispatch area and submit your job to the dispatcher. Movies kinda show what it was like back then with the closed shop fishbowl-data-center. Only operators were inside to touch the machine. Now with "the cloud", we don't even get to see das blinkenlights and tapes-a-twirling. I still remember feeling so heartfallen when I learned that the FORTRAN "sense lights" might not actually light up anything. That's why I was so happy to use the LGP-21, where sense switches were REAL SWITCHES! > Come back in minutes or hours, depending on the load, Or longer :-9 > and retrieve your deck and printout. > Review the output for syntax errors, keypunch errors and logic errors. > Return to the keypunch room and punch new cards to fix the errors. > Lather, rinse and repeat. You beat me to it! I was about to say the same thing. -- jeffj

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Hoodies arriving soon
by Evan Koblentz 20 Jan '17

20 Jan '17

For everyone who ordered a hoodie recently: they're arriving at our museum on February 1st. ________________________________ Evan Koblentz, director Vintage Computer Federation a 501(c)3 educational non-profit evan(a)vcfed.org (646) 546-9999 www.vcfed.org facebook.com/vcfederation twitter.com/vcfederation

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terminally sorting cards
by Jeffrey Jonas 20 Jan '17

20 Jan '17

Roganti: > about that same time, we got those new Hazeltine 1500 teminals, > that was really sweet trying out some new code > with the Esc control seqences on the CRT I remember a similar exultation when my school replaced a TTY with an ADM3a featuring lower case and full cursor control! A lot of code had that hard-coded, thus programs being tied to their hardware. That's particularly true of the early hobbyist programs, even with CP/M. Some programs such as WordStar had a configuration program to set the terminal and printer. Even now, Microsoft Windows folks struggle to find drivers for peripherals. Linux is not guiltless but is a lot less brittle thanks to the Unix evolution of termcap and terminfo. > so in school we really skipped over the punch card scene, > it wasn't until my first job did I actually get > my hands on the punched card machines During a consulting assignment on an IBM system 3, I had access to a card sorter and the related sorting trays. That taught me what's now called the "radix sort" and gave me insights into the earier era of accounting machines. A lot of card juggling there, not by the box but by the palette! What hath thou caused us, oh Mr. Hollerith!

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THINK!
by Jeffrey Jonas 20 Jan '17

20 Jan '17

Neil Cherry: > I get in a lot of trouble when I'm engineering something > because before I start doing, I start planning. T.J. Watson Sr said it best. "THINK". There are youtube videos where he explains that motto. Not "think first" or "think ahead". Just "think". Think about what you're doing before doing it. Solve the problem, don't just make a program for the sake of writing programs. > I sit down and think first. > My boss had a fit with me until I explained that I will be on schedule > even though I had physically to show. > I find it hard to believe that people can start doing > without planning first. So the paper and pen > (white board, markers and a camera) are my preferred method of starting a project. It's those pointy-headed-bosses that cause the crapware we have: folks pounding out pretty pieces that might not fit together, but it's "look busy" and "how many lines of code can you write per day" vs. does it work, is it maintainable, is it optimized or other goodness-o-meter things.

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one screen vs. a few active windows
by Jeffrey Jonas 20 Jan '17

20 Jan '17

David Riley: > Personally, my favorite is juggling jobs with ^Z and 'fg %x', > since it means one less thing to have to click on > (also, I got my start in command-line programming on single-window terminals, > so jobs juggling was the only option). > If possible, I like to avoid mouse use entirely; it entails a high context-switch overhead. I started with programmable calculators, but they were limited to their ROM system. Punched cards and greenbar on batch systems gave access to a world of languages but was S L O W and frustrationg, particularly the turnaround to fix just ONE syntax error, or 'desk debugging' an ABEND. Migrating to a Teletype was nicer: interactive but still limited by the printer mechanism. Migrating to a "glass tty" was a step up for full screen interactive editing, saving paper, no more waiting for the printer, etc. But this is where the narrative diverges. 1) Using a dedicated terminal is nice because there's little to go wrong with it once the baud rate and such are set. Any problem and just swap terminals. VCF celebrates such systems. A lot. 2) But once I started using Procomm under DOS, I could do a lot more. File transfers. Play back scripts. Save screen shots. Log the entire session. Automate dialers and logins. 3) I used Unix shell layers, job control and various data switches with a plain terminal. It allows multiplexing the single device. But it's still just one connection at a time. It's nice having the OPTION of multiple active windows. Right now, I'm using a laptop with a full screen vi-editor, composing this into a temporary file that I'll cut-and-paste into my gmail account to reply to the list. But with just one click, I'm back to the full screen Firefox since I am still reading the list digest. That's how I'm combining my replies. No need for refresh, oh where was I, etc. But then again, I just interrupted vi for a shell escape to blast out a quick email because this is via ssh to a remote system and it's a nusance to create a temporary window, ssh again just for one interruption.

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going paperless
by Jeffrey Jonas 20 Jan '17

20 Jan '17

Mike Loewen: > A lot of us old-school C programmers prefer the command line. 99.9% of my work is command line. That way a shell script can automate it. I can recall a command and "do it again". > My personal preference (on *nix) is: > 1. Terminal window open for editing with 'vim'. > 2. Another terminal window for running 'make'. > 3. A third terminal for reading 'man' pages. :-) I'm still floundering with going totally paperless for manuals and documentation. It's nice downloading multi-hundred page PDF files and not needing to clear shelf space for each databook. But books can be read without electricity and allow for customization such as bookmarks, column-notes and post-its. For schematics, I still prefer ledger or size B or C to minimize off-page connectors. How I hate ALD (automated logic diagrams) :-( Standard US Architectural Drawing Sizes Size (mm, inches) ARCH A 228.6 x 304.8 9 x 12 ARCH B 304.8 x 457.2 12 x 18 ARCH C 457.2 x 609.6 18 x 24 ARCH D 609.6 x 914.4 24 x 36 ARCH E 914.4 x 1219.2 36 x 48

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C or Pascal?
by Jeffrey Jonas 20 Jan '17

20 Jan '17

Evan: > If I try learning C, > then I could go directly to K&R or even pick up a modern Dummies book, > but for period's sake it would be the former. But remember the intended audience back then. K&R was BY computer folks FOR computer folks. It's "concise", thus all the followup annotated versions by others. Computer centers had a social element: the local guru instead of Google and wikis. AT&T, colleges all had formal & informal heirarchies of staff & helpers to help newcomers. You cannot assume such an environment anymore, an issue Kernighan and I discussed at VCF. Referring to Grace Hopper's interview on David Letterman: there were no manuals for the ENIAC. It was all learn by the seat of your pants. Writing manuals was quite the cottage industry, thus all the "learn along with us" newsletters, user groups and magazines. The Beagle Brothers were legendary for their fun Apple tips & tricks. O'Reilly Nutshell books set the standard for how to learn new things QUICK.

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why FORTH, not FOURTH?
by Jeffrey Jonas 20 Jan '17

20 Jan '17

McGuire: > Yeah, that's one part of history that I do NOT miss. > I do a good bit of assembler these days > and just wouldn't be able to stay sane > with five-character identifier names. Ach, you kids have it so easy with your long filenames, subdirectories and long identifiers! Working with limitations is part of computer HISTORY (and being re-discovered by embedded programmers) - 5 character filenames & labels on the 1130 - 8.3 filenames on CP/M and DOS - 14 character filenames on early Unix file systems (16 byte directory entry: 2 byte inode #, 14 byte name). Other machines and operating systems had their own restrictions, such as radix-50 for six characters into one 36-bit word https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEC_Radix-50 Neil Cherry: > and I think Python is used for that now > (good language though the indentation > brings me back to my Assembly Language days, > yes with 4 char labels). Indentation? 4 character labels? WHAT A LUXURY! I started with EDU-25 BASIC: ONE character names and line NUMBERS! FORTRAN was a step-up with longer variable names and line numbers only where needed! Bob Flanders: > And don't use no big words I can't understand. That's why old systems were better! No long names or words allowed! I never liked William F. Buckley because I needed a dictionary to look up everything he said :-/ Roganti: > I read that some acronyms we were so accustomed to were actually backronyms Some were intentional, such as XINU (Xinu Is Not Unix), others were to cover up an "in joke" when something was named, particularly when using naughty words (SNAFU, FUBAR).

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] Perhaps I asked the wrong question...
by Brian L. Stuart 20 Jan '17

20 Jan '17

On Fri, 1/20/17, Mike Loewen via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic(a)lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote: > Welcome to the early 1970s. :-) Write your FORTRAN program down on > coding forms: > > https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/18/FortranCodingForm.png > > Then head to the keypunch room and punch your deck. Take it to the > dispatch area and submit your job to the dispatcher. Come back in minutes Or, as happened for one of my final exams in college, the professor takes the coding forms, photocopies them, and gives you back the originals. Then you have to go make the program work. You lose 1/4 point per character you have to change up to a maximum of 2 points per line up to a maximum of 50 points for the whole program. An interesting experience... BLS

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] Perhaps I asked the wrong question...
by Mike Loewen 20 Jan '17

20 Jan '17

On Fri, 20 Jan 2017, Alexander Pierson via vcf-midatlantic wrote: > At the same time I was wrestling with that, I did a historical paper on > Pascal. In the process of researching it, I think that was the first > time I was exposed to the concept of writing out a program by hand with > pencil and paper before entering it onto a computer. That blew my mind, > seeing as never thought of a time before text editors and glass > terminals. I'm so used to instant gratification of finding syntactical > errors and compiling at the drop of a hat. Then again, that dates me as > an individual... > I should really give the alternative a try some time for the sake of > perspective. Welcome to the early 1970s. :-) Write your FORTRAN program down on coding forms: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/18/FortranCodingForm.png Then head to the keypunch room and punch your deck. Take it to the dispatch area and submit your job to the dispatcher. Come back in minutes or hours, depending on the load, and retrieve your deck and printout. Review the output for syntax errors, keypunch errors and logic errors. Return to the keypunch room and punch new cards to fix the errors. Lather, rinse and repeat. While punched cards and keypunches trigger my nostalgia, I also prefer the "instant gratification" of frequent compilation. Mike Loewen mloewen(a)cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] Perhaps I asked the wrong question...
by VAXman＠tmesis.org 19 Jan '17

19 Jan '17

william degnan via vcf-midatlantic writes: >On Thu, Jan 19, 2017 at 8:01 AM, Brian Schenkenberger via vcf-midatlantic < >vcf-midatlantic(a)lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote: > >> william degnan via vcf-midatlantic writes: >> >> > BASIC is the universal language for >> >demos in a museum setting when you're just showing something that you >> >can execute in real time. >> >> ROTFLMAO! >> >> >Brian, >Might you be a tad biased? What language other than BASIC is most present >on the machines in the museum? I should have said the universal language >for demos in our museum setting. Sometimes you have to be practical rather >than theoretical. Pascal? C? Assembly? For museum demos? This thread >is full of "what I would do's" rather than what is reasonable, efficient >and practical specifically for Evan to use and self-support. >Bill Sorry, Real time and BASIC is what was funny.

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] Perhaps I asked the wrong question...
by Brian L. Stuart 19 Jan '17

19 Jan '17

On Thu, 1/19/17, Dave McGuire via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic(a)lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote: > Forth is a really mind-bending language, but man, it sure is > powerful. I love it. Indeed. Forth and LISP both bend your mind, and in different directions. Taken together they stretch your mind more than hallucinogens. Now you know why I'm the way I am :) BLS

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] Washington, D.C.
by J. Alexander Jacocks 19 Jan '17

19 Jan '17

So, did we come to a conclusion? Are we going to meet this evening, or tomorrow evening? Everyone should be aware that the inauguration is tomorrow, and that could make a mess of traffic, in NoVA. - Alex On Wed, Jan 18, 2017 at 12:59 PM, Alexander via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic(a)lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote: > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Alexander <ajpierson1(a)yahoo.com> > To: vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic(a)lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> > Cc: > Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2017 12:59:59 -0500 > Subject: Re: [vcf-midatlantic] Washington, D.C. > Depending on the time, I will probably be free on one of those days for > something. I'm near Tyson's more or less. > > -Alexander 'Z' Pierson > > Sent from my pocket telephone. > > "J. Alexander Jacocks via vcf-midatlantic" <vcf-midatlantic@lists. > vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote: > > >I'm also in the DC area, and will be in Tyson's Corner, tomorrow, and > could > >probably meet. > > > >- Alex > > > >On Wed, Jan 18, 2017 at 12:51 PM, Ethan via vcf-midatlantic < > >vcf-midatlantic(a)lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote: > > > >> If anyone is going to be around the D.C. area over the next couple of > days > >>> for whatever reason and would like to meet over coffee, feel free to > >>> e-mail > >>> me at dcayea(a)lyonmountain.com > >>> > >> > >> I'm in Northern VA. I know there is a few others on here (though haven't > >> met them face to face.) Are you in the city or suburbs? Any NoVA people > >> want to meet up in the evening Thur/Fri ? > >> > >> - Ethan O > >> > >> > >> > >

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Amazon Smile
by Evan Koblentz 19 Jan '17

19 Jan '17

As others noted: we registered for Amazon Smile, which is their non-profit fundraising program. That means you can shop at https://smile.amazon.com/ch/47-4133714, get all the same things at all the same prices, and a tiny portion of it gets donated to Vintage Computer Federation. ________________________________ Evan Koblentz, director Vintage Computer Federation a 501(c)3 educational non-profit evan(a)vcfed.org (646) 546-9999 www.vcfed.org facebook.com/vcfederation twitter.com/vcfederation

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Assembler, continued
by Evan Koblentz 19 Jan '17

19 Jan '17

Dan's suggestion worked: typing an exclamation inside the monitor brought me into the mini-assembler. I need a book * specifically * for the enhanced/Platinum model. Otherwise I won't know which mistakes are mine vs which are differences in the computer. Some of you will advise me to just get an older Apple II instead :) but I don't have space for another system. Evan Koblentz, director Vintage Computer Federation A 501(c)3 educational non-profit http://www.vcfed.org

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