- vcf-midatlantic - lists.vcfed.org

Re: [vcf-midatlantic] OT: Recovering
by VAXman＠tmesis.org 18 Jun '16

18 Jun '16

Evan Koblentz via vcf-midatlantic writes: >It's good to be home. It's good to be the king.

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OT: Recovering
by Herb Johnson 17 Jun '16

17 Jun '16

Glad the news is good and you are iching to get back home. Hope you can recover your running legs soon, but it will take time. Herb -- Herbert R. Johnson, New Jersey USA http://www.retrotechnology.com OR .net

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Auctions are done
by Evan Koblentz 17 Jun '16

17 Jun '16

Sol sold for $2,870. Apple sold for $4,056. Thank you to everyone who bidded!

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Maybe someone can help this guy and make a few bucks
by Christian Liendo 17 Jun '16

17 Jun '16

http://newhaven.craigslist.org/wan/5637780948.html Wanted: To rent a Tandy 1000RL computer (for data recovery) - $50 hide this posting I have an old Tandy 1000RL computer where I would like to recover the data from the hard disk and put it on a modern system. The problem is, the floppy drive is broken (Teac FD235F-105U), and it seems this exact model is hard to get (Tandy powered the drive via the ribbon cable, which most drives don't use). I've exhausted a lot of options, and now I basically am just wanting to "rent" somebodies Tandy 1000RL computer (Or I can come over and use yours) so that I can transfer the hard disk into your computer and then use yours to copy the data to floppy disks of my own to take home. I can travel to anywhere in the bay area for this. This is just a one-time operation. While the data is copying, I could maybe buy you a few beers or lunch or something and provide good conversation.

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Univac, our first real work!
by Herb Johnson 16 Jun '16

16 Jun '16

I'm excited to hear about this, the work begun on these Univac units. Vacuum tube computers are scarce, they are before my time but intriguing to me. The capstan problem is typical of any device that handles tape, either magnetic or paper. I have a number of devices with melted capstans. My casual knowledge of other's work, is to either find a similar rubber capstan and transfer the rubber (Bill Degnan suggested this also); or to mill out (as in milling machine) a chunk of rubber to fit. So I'd like to hear about any resolution for this rubber capstan problem. So I'd like my keep an ear on this Univac project for a number of reasons. Herb -- Herbert R. Johnson, New Jersey USA http://www.retrotechnology.com OR .net

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Hazel tine manuals
by dave 16 Jun '16

16 Jun '16

Hi all, I also posted this to cctalk—sorry if you get a duplicate. These Hazeltine 2000 were just on Ebay and were quickly snatched up. Did anybody here happen to snag them? http://www.ebay.com/itm/272275536298 http://www.ebay.com/itm/282069468875 I've been looking for these manuals for some time. If someone won them (or has a set), I wonder if you'd be willing to create some nice high-quality scans. I'd be willing to pitch in to cover the costs of scanning large pages, etc. with high resolution. Alternatively, if anyone has similar manuals and would be willing to sell them, I'd be interested. Thanks for any info! Dave

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OT: hello world
by Evan Koblentz 16 Jun '16

16 Jun '16

Hoping to get out of here tonight, otherwise it'll be tomorrow. Generally feeling miserable. Someone come bust me out of the joint. It's like I am Beeker being exposed to crazy Muppet experiments.

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] OT: Recovering
by Al Hartman 16 Jun '16

16 Jun '16

Great to hear that you’re OK Evan! -[ Al ]- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Evan Koblentz via vcf-midatlantic" <vcf-midatlantic(a)lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> To: "Vcf-ma List" <Vcf-midatlantic(a)lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> Cc: "Evan Koblentz" <evan(a)snarc.net> Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2016 8:15 PM Subject: [vcf-midatlantic] OT: Recovering > Hey everyone. Was in surgery for three hours and now I'm recovering. They said > lab results will take a week to be official but unofficially it was as > expected, a benign cartilage tumor on my left femur. In some pain but mostly I > feel okay after a sleeping an additional three hours and eating. Getting a > room soon. Can't reiterate enough how much I appreciate all the friendship and > support in this group. I can be a PITA sometimes ;) but you're all my kind of > crazy.

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Other computers for sale...
by Al Hartman 16 Jun '16

16 Jun '16

I found another computer I’d like to sell. It’s a Tandy 1200HD, but not sure what’s in it as I never opened the box and powered it up. I’m pretty sure it has 2 floppies and no video card. I can provide a CGA or Monochrome card for a few bucks extra. I have no keyboard to go with it. Asking $150.00 – Local Pickup in Keansburg NJ. I also have a 5150 logic board upgraded from 256k to 640k in a clone PC Case. The Power supply is dead, but probably repairable. Make an offer. Need to raise cash for medical bills, and to clear out my collection in case I have to go to a Nursing home. -[ Al ]-

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] OT: Recovering
by VAXman＠tmesis.org 16 Jun '16

16 Jun '16

Evan Koblentz via vcf-midatlantic writes: >Hey everyone. Was in surgery for three hours and now I'm recovering. >They= said lab results will take a week to be official but unofficially >it was= as expected, a benign cartilage tumor on my left femur. In some >pain but= mostly I feel okay after a sleeping an additional three hours >and eating= . Getting a room soon. Can't reiterate enough how much I >appreciate all t= he friendship and support in this group. I can be a >PITA sometimes ;) but= you're all my kind of crazy. Happy to hear you're OK. I suppose this will limit your running for awhile?

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] Signed Apple ][
by Ethan 15 Jun '16

15 Jun '16

> Two words: > Retracted bid It must be two different accounts retracting their bid? I've done bid retraction before after noticing some detail in the auction that was detrimental to items usefullness. Scuba equipment is wrong model or thread or something like that, or seller has wrong model # on AV hardware which changes feature set. It didn't require sellers approval if before end of auction.

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Signed Apple ][
by Mike Loewen 15 Jun '16

15 Jun '16

What's with the VCF Apple ][ on Ebay? It was over $4,000 and now it's only $1,340. Mike Loewen mloewen(a)cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/

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Auction update
by Evan Koblentz 14 Jun '16

14 Jun '16

Bidding on the Apple II passed $4,000 and there are three days remaining. Sol-20 is beyond $2,000. Evan can be a pain in the ass,

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Computer History Museum seeking Lotus + Prentice Hall software
by Evan Koblentz 14 Jun '16

14 Jun '16

Everyone, CHM contacted me. They're seeking copies (or better yet, original disks) of Lotus Development’s Executive Briefing System for the Apple II and Prentice-Hall’s VCN ExecuVision for the IBM PC. Contact: dbrock(a)computerhistory.org -Evan

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Univac, our first real work!
by Evan Koblentz 14 Jun '16

14 Jun '16

Hey everyone, Our workshop this past weekend had the usual highlights -- we repaired all sorts of 8-bit stuff, monitors, did some programming, enjoyed plenty of nerdly shenanigans -- but by far the highlight was when Duane C. and Bill Drom. told me the Univac 1532 I/O console (paper tape + Model 35 teletype) was ready for its first power up! Background: We acquired a complete-ish Univac 1219-B mainframe about six years ago. One tape drive was on display for a few years in our old museum, and much of the full system was on display as one of the VCF East shows, but mostly the computer lived in our warehouse. That changed this spring when we opened the new museum: its double doorway enabled us to put the computer on permanent public display. We cleaned it on the outside. Bill Drom. and Duane, who both used this model of Univac in their Navy days, jointly approached me ahead of this past workshop and asked if they could start technical work by modifying one of the console units for a modern power supply. They assured me it's safe and easily reversible to the original configuration, so I said yes. A summary from Duane about what they actually did: >> The +/- 15 and -4.5 switching supplies fit in the space we removed the 400 Hz. transformer-diode assembly. The -28 volt supply wound up in the air channel at the bottom. We bypassed the 400 Hz. power on relay and have to turn on with a external switch. Does anyone have a feel of what 60 Hz. voltage would pick a 115 Volt 400 Hz. relay? if it is a straight inductance problem it would be 17.25 volts . We left that for a future visit when we have a variac to play with. We did not have time to trouble shoot all the problems the 1532 had. at first the logic was so crazy that we put in a logic drawer from another unit. turns out the display unit was missing cards. The rubber on the reader capstan had turned to a gooey mess and peeled off onto the tape we tried. If none of their consoles has a usable pinch roller they will have to send it off to a service that does that sort of thing. Maybe we could try some of the liquid rubber that is made to dip tool handles in. The punch is punching extra bits. The oil on the TTY was all dried up and at first the TTY would not do anything. It took about an hour of oiling and moving stuff by hand until it gradually came to life. The tape chute has the bracket that holds it up under the punch broken so the tape gets snarled coming out of the punch. It will be easier to swap out the tape drawer than to try to swap the chute. I put in a new one once and it took me about a hour to figure out how to get it in without bending it. << Saturday night, when only the power supply was installed, about a half-dozen of us went into the museum room and observed the first power-up. Here's the video... well actually it's take two; the first time I idiotically recorded it with my phone in portrait mode. :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQCSGF5Suxo We have three more of these console units in storage, along with one extra CPU and one extra tape drive, which is all very helpful for parts-swapping. This is an exciting milestone for us! I'm going to send a note to the nice people who gave us the system as well.

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] Univac, our first real work!
by william degnan 14 Jun '16

14 Jun '16

On Tue, Jun 14, 2016 at 8:16 AM, Joe Herdler via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic(a)lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote: > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Joe Herdler <joe.herdler(a)yahoo.com> > To: vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic(a)lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> > Cc: > Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2016 12:16:06 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [vcf-midatlantic] Univac, our first real work! > What model TTY do you have? If it is a 28, I know a former TTY / > Western-Electric engineer who works on those and restores them to life. He > restored my TTYs and might be willing to travel if asked nicely. > I have three 28 units in my own collection all running on a three way loop > with a tube based FSK generator/reader. (The 28 series was the > flash-Cadillac of the TTY world.) > Best, > Joe > Consciousness affects the medium. Think happy, be happy, and happiness > will follow you. > > I believe it's discussed in more detail in the video, but the 1532 = Teletype model 35. The teletypes need lubrication and standard maintenance but otherwise they are in nice shape and should be able to restore. We also have boxes of parts. I checked out all of the 1532's on site. Some are even nicer than the one we have in the museum. http://vintagecomputer.net/pictures/2016/InfoAgeWorkshops/vcfed_univac_1532… Bill

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] Burroughs indicator module
by Mike Loewen 13 Jun '16

13 Jun '16

On Mon, 13 Jun 2016, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Mike Loewen wrote: >> I'm flipping through the pictures, get to the last one, and started >> LMAO. Looks familiar. :-) Apparently there aren't many BUIC pictures >> online. > > So what does the gold cord on the shoulder signify? > > Bill S. I was playing in the Keesler Blue Knights Drum and Bugle Corps while I was there for tech school. The "rope" was worn by student leaders: green, yellow and red (highest). I was the Bugle Sergeant, in charge of the horn section. This was in 1982. Mike Loewen mloewen(a)cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/

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Burroughs indicator module
by Mike Loewen 13 Jun '16

13 Jun '16

So, I'm browsing Epay and I see a Burroughs indicator module, supposedly the same module that was used in the BUIC system: #272273278989 I'm flipping through the pictures, get to the last one, and started LMAO. Looks familiar. :-) Apparently there aren't many BUIC pictures online. Mike Loewen mloewen(a)cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/

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I spoke too soon (ISA/USB)
by Evan Koblentz 13 Jun '16

13 Jun '16

The $30 ones are ISA cards that give you USB slots. Not at all what I need. There's a $150 thing that does what I need. Too expensive.

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What's this part called?
by Evan Koblentz 13 Jun '16

13 Jun '16

The picture at http://snarc.net/board.jpg shows the inside of a PS/2 Model 30. As you can see, it's missing the daughter board for the ISA slots. What is that board called? Anybody have one that I could borrow from now through mid-July?

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Happiness is...
by Mike Loewen 13 Jun '16

13 Jun '16

...powering up a Tandy 6000HD which hasn't been run for at least 2 years, and having it boot right up to Xenix 3.2! I'm thinking of exhibiting it at VCF Midwest with my 1986 BBS software. Mike Loewen mloewen(a)cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/

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Sol 20 parts...
by Bill Sudbrink 13 Jun '16

13 Jun '16

Hi all, On June 5th, a user called "ronsolve" offered a collection of vintage computer items on the VCF forums. Among other things in the collection, were two Sol 20 motherboards, one unassembled. I started communicating with Ron, trying to arrange to come by and see the items (he was, apparently, fairly close to me), when he informed me that the entire lot was sold. I happen to have a Sol 20 chassis, power supply and riser with no motherboard or keyboard. I asked Ron if he could forward my interest to the purchaser, either for me to buy one of the boards or to offer the purchaser my information if he/she wanted to acquire my chassis. Either way, I think they should be united. Anyway, Ron "went dark" so I'm just going to broadcast my interest in case someone on the list bought the lot or knows who did. Bill S.

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pics from workshop, mostly univac 1219 System
by william degnan 13 Jun '16

13 Jun '16

I took a few pictures http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=639 and http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=640 -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg <https://twitter.com/billdeg> Youtube: @billdeg <https://www.youtube.com/user/billdeg> Unauthorized Bio <http://www.vintagecomputer.net/readme.cfm>

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Various Computers for sale...
by Al Hartman 13 Jun '16

13 Jun '16

I have a TRS-80 Model I with an Expansion Interface and a monitor. It has a doubler, and an RS-232 card (I think.) I also have a dual drive system to include with it. The monitor is a little dim, and could use some service from someone knowledgeable. The keyboard unit has an intermittent problem where it will display garbage on boot up. Usually tapping on the unit will fix it. There’s probably a cold solder joint inside the unit. I had replaced a RAM chip when I got it. I need to sell it due to health issues. Asking $450.00 for the unit. I can make copies of DOS disks for it if needed. ----------------- I have a Model III with 48k and one disk drive (the other one was broken). We replaced the bad disk controller cable and bad RAM chips. It needs a new keyboard. Make me a decent offer. --------------- I have a Black Macbook, with the following specs: - Intel Core 2 Duo 2.2 ghz - 4gb RAM - 160gb RAM - 13.3 Screen - Super Drive - Magsafe Adapter with Power Cable and Power Plug I have wiped and reloaded the unit and updated to MacOS X 10.7.5. It has had the battery and top case replaced by the Apple store, but there is a minor chip in the case on the right side on the top corner of the bottom case. Due to it’s age, it is sold AS-IS with no warranty. The battery has good life in it (forgot run time), but it has sat on a shelf unused for awhile since the battery was replaced. Asking $150.00 ----------------------- Intel Core 2 Duo iMac (Early 2006 - White) - 2.0 ghz Processor - 3gb RAM - 160hb HDD - 8x DL Super Drive - Airport Wireless - Wired Keyboard and Mouse - Apple Remote - I have wiped and reloaded the unit and updated to MacOS X 10.7.5. - AC Power Cord Asking: $150.00 ------------------- I have an iMac G4, but I don't remember the specs. I think it has 384k of RAM, but might be more. I think it's a 700mhz unit. I have a keyboard, mouse and Power Cable for it. I think it has MacOS X 10.5 on it. Asking $100.00 I have been very sick and in and out of the hospital. Medical bills are piling up, and I may need to go into a nursing home. So, I'm starting to sell off my collection. I will consider good offers, but please be kind. Local pickup in Keansburg, NJ. -[ Al Hartman ]-

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New Movie on Kickstarter Narrated by Bil Herd
by Chris Fala 13 Jun '16

13 Jun '16

At the recent Vintage Computer Festival East XI during the Friday workshops, a few of you may have seen Bil screen the Commodore version of The 8 Bit Generation documentary. I was quite surprised that I was the only person in attendance who was a Kickstarter backer of that movie. Well here is your chance to help produce another documentary in the series. This one is centered around Atari. The Commodore one was excellent, so I can't imagine that this wouldn't also be great. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1744798558/easy-to-learn-hard-to-maste…

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XT-IDE rev 3 Boards Have Shipped!
by Systems Glitch 13 Jun '16

13 Jun '16

Just received an email alert that the run of XT-IDE rev 3 boards have shipped from PCBCart in China. They're coming DHL, which is usually 2-3 days China -> Here. Thanks, Jonathan

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Workshop
by Evan Koblentz 13 Jun '16

13 Jun '16

Everyone ready for the workshop tomorrow? We're starting at 10am. I'll bring doughnuts.

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books about robots
by Evan Koblentz 12 Jun '16

12 Jun '16

Remember last week we discussed books about robots in the HOPE thread? Both books arrived today. One of them, "How to design & build your own custom robot" by David Heiserman, is very deep -- heavy reading. The other, "How to build a computer-controlled robot" by Tod Loofbourrow, contains a reasonable project that we as a group can build (but not in time for HOPE unless we really bust ass.) In the preface of Loofbourrow's book, he wrote: "I want to thank the members of the Amateur Computer Group of New Jersey, whose suggestions have helped make Mike (that's what he calls the robot -EK) what he is today." Googled the author. He went on to a nice career in robotics. I sent him an intro tweet via our official VCFed account. Apparently he lives in the Boston area. Maybe we can get him down to the museum for a talk one day.

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books about robots
by Herb Johnson 12 Jun '16

12 Jun '16

The local to me College of NJ library has copies of "How to design" by Heiserman and "How to build" by Loofbourrow. I read them and they are both interesting and useful as vintage how-to robotics books. Heiserman is pre-microprocessor so it's pure TTL digital logic. It's informative about digital methods. Loofbourrow covers a lot of mechanics on joints, hands; and has lots of KIM 6502 code. Both books, and others of that late 1970's era, are good on how to make mechanical stuff from available materials - wood, metal, etc. To make robotics from stuff on hand, not stuff you buy for that use. And they lay out the logic and often the code for managing sensors and actuators; stuff that's often buried in support code today. It's informative and educational to see these things at a fundamental level. HErb -- Herbert R. Johnson, New Jersey USA http://www.retrotechnology.com OR .net

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] Happiness is...
by Jason Perkins 12 Jun '16

12 Jun '16

If you guys need a pbx I have an AT&T partner I've been trying to get rid of. Jason Perkins 313 355.0085 Sent from my Kindle On June 12, 2016, at 2:16 PM, Jim Scheef via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic(a)lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote: Mike, It would be very cool if people could bring appropriate devices - say a Tandy M100 - and "dial" into the BBS onsite. Jim -----Original Message----- From: vcf-midatlantic [mailto:vcf-midatlantic-bounces@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org] On Behalf Of Mike Loewen via vcf-midatlantic Sent: Thursday, June 9, 2016 1:13 AM To: vcf-midatlantic(a)lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org Cc: Mike Loewen <mloewen(a)cpumagic.scol.pa.us> Subject: [vcf-midatlantic] Happiness is... ...powering up a Tandy 6000HD which hasn't been run for at least 2 years, and having it boot right up to Xenix 3.2! I'm thinking of exhibiting it at VCF Midwest with my 1986 BBS software. Mike Loewen mloewen(a)cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/

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A neat way to support VCFed
by Evan Koblentz 12 Jun '16

12 Jun '16

Now that eBay knows we're a legitimate charity, anyone can post a listing and specify that X percent of the sale should be given to us. Check it out: http://charity.ebay.com/charity-auctions/charity/vintage-computer-federatio….

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Workshop breakfast tomorrow
by Evan Koblentz 12 Jun '16

12 Jun '16

For anybody who didn't stay here tonight or who is arriving tomorrow: we will meet for breakfast at the Princess Maria Dinner (on Rt. 35 in Wall Township) at 9:00am. Probably back at the museum around 10:30ish.

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"floppy drive pot luck" at the June workshop?
by Steven Michelsen 10 Jun '16

10 Jun '16

I am planning to come to the June workshop this weekend, in the hopes that someone can help me diagnose my smokin' hot (literally) Eagle PC. I found a seller on ebay who is local to me, that just sold a lot of 5.25" floppy drives for $7 each. He has 13 more of them that he was planning to put up for auction. He says that they were all pulled from PCs on their way to recycling, and they have not been tested. They are all half-height drives. He is willing to sell me the pile for $6 each. I will pick up the other 13 drives if enough folks who will be at the event this weekend are willing to put up $6 each for one or more of them. I will keep a few myself; there will be about 10 up for grabs. Who's in? The seller has given me a day to gauge your interest in this stuff. If this email violates some sort of "no commerce" mandate, I apologize. I am not looking to make anything on all this; just looking to share what seems like a good deal. Steve

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] "floppy drive pot luck" at the June workshop
by Steven Michelsen 10 Jun '16

10 Jun '16

OK I just bought the lot. Whatever is left over I can always keep or put up on ebay. I hope to be there tomorrow 1pm or so. Steve -----Original Message----- From: vcf-midatlantic [mailto:vcf-midatlantic-bounces@lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org] On Behalf Of Dean Notarnicola via vcf-midatlantic Sent: Friday, June 10, 2016 3:38 PM To: vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic(a)lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> Cc: Dean Notarnicola <dnotarnicola(a)gmail.com> Subject: Re: [vcf-midatlantic] "floppy drive pot luck" at the June workshop? I'll take at least one; more if they are 360K On Friday, June 10, 2016, william degnan via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic(a)lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote: > Steve, > That's very on-topic, thanks for the suggestion. Hopefully someone > will want them b > > On Fri, Jun 10, 2016 at 3:18 PM, Steven Michelsen via vcf-midatlantic > < vcf-midatlantic(a)lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org <javascript:;>> wrote: > > > I am planning to come to the June workshop this weekend, in the > > hopes > that > > someone can help me diagnose my smokin' hot (literally) Eagle PC. > > > > > > > > I found a seller on ebay who is local to me, that just sold a lot of > 5.25" > > floppy drives for $7 each. He has 13 more of them that he was > > planning > to > > put up for auction. He says that they were all pulled from PCs on their > > way to recycling, and they have not been tested. They are all > half-height > > drives. He is willing to sell me the pile for $6 each. > > > > > > > > I will pick up the other 13 drives if enough folks who will be at > > the > event > > this weekend are willing to put up $6 each for one or more of them. I > > will > > keep a few myself; there will be about 10 up for grabs. Who's in? The > > seller has given me a day to gauge your interest in this stuff. > > > > > > > > If this email violates some sort of "no commerce" mandate, I apologize. > I > > am not looking to make anything on all this; just looking to share > > what seems like a good deal. > > > > > > > > Steve > > > > > > > -- > @ BillDeg: > Web: vintagecomputer.net > Twitter: @billdeg <https://twitter.com/billdeg> > Youtube: @billdeg <https://www.youtube.com/user/billdeg> > Unauthorized Bio <http://www.vintagecomputer.net/readme.cfm> >

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bunch-o-replies
by Jeffrey Jonas 10 Jun '16

10 Jun '16

I get the digest version so I'm replying to everything I just read: From: VAXman(a)tmesis.org > Also, the GUI -- guarantee user ignorance That's a good one *ker-quote* *** Neil Cherry: > I really see no merit to teaching some programming lingo > but I do see merit in developing a logical/programming mindset > to get from point A (input) the point B (output). I misread that as "from port A input to port B output". But I'll make my point anyway: even BASIC had PEEK and POKE for hardware specific twiddling. Most Apple ][ folks had the Beagle Brothers posters and cheat-sheets for hardware specific tweaks and configurations. Now it's all an "app" or utility. No understanding required. *** Bill Sudbrink: > We get job candidates with CS degrees from reputable universities > who don't know what a register is I'm still wrestling with how to explain "what is a register" without using the word "register". Saying it's "special memory" doesn't convey how it's so different from RAM or ROM. *** Dean Notarnicola > ... I knew plenty of Cobol programmers back in the day > who knew practically zero about how or why the underlying systems worked. My dad worked on mainframes since the 50s. Cobol was his bread-and-butter but he also had to know peripheral specifics to make them sing and dance. He still remembers details of the Analex printer required to make it work at full tilt because printing labels was one of his assignments. Things people proudly claim as "hacks" were just common requirements of the job "back then". My dad knew machine code and assemblers. He has reference cards for Autocoder and other ancient tongues because before source code debuggers, all you got was a core dump and the error exception. IBM mainframes gave an ABEND code, register dump and a core dump. The programmer manually figured out what instruction gave the error, crawling around the data segment as required to figure the full context. Huge tables were often covered in fanfold to trace all the pieces. *** chrisjpf33(a)gmail.com > And that is why we have garbage software today! Thus Java: write once, debug everywhere. I've seen embedded crapware, such as a Dlink home router that emitted the most horrendous HTML it was my displeasure to view. Despite claiming "Linux compatible", some administrative menus were IE only, as if the firmware was created by someone using M$ building blocks. *** re: not learning what's under the hood I'm kinda guilty-as-charged. I had an assignment on IBM system 3 where I took a black-box lego-building-block approach since time was limited. I learned RPG, OCL (the system's primitive JCL) and the system utilities. Everything required for program development and machine administration, but never got deeper into the machine architecture. McGuire's ribbed me for that since it's a wonderful machine. I don't think the client would've appreciated my frobbing the CE panel :-) I made up for that by learning the Z80 and IBM 1130. *** Evan: > I'd be interested in seeing how the percentage of college freshman > choosing the EE major changes over time for the past few decades. And what constitutes an EE major now vs. 'then'? I'm not up to date on ABET accreditation but degree requirements are a moving target. I had just missed learning tubes and using a slide rule. The motor/generator lab was abandoned only a few years earlier because nobody taught it. The curriculum emphasized math, solid state physics and silicon devices. Interdisciplinary engineering is now not only tolerated but encouraged. Simulation tools such as MATLAB are considered essential foundations. Today's EE degree is quite different from that of only a few years ago. As Christopher Blackmon already replied: > The college I went to (NC State Univ) > offers a CPE (Computer Engineering) degree that (at least was) > a simple hybrid of CSC & EE re: Storage is basically free now. Not when you're using a system-on-chip such as the Arduino. The popular AT-Tiny takes everything several steps smaller. *** re: Tony Bogan > 99% of the people never have and never will > know how to fix a car, or even a bike. I'm forced to agree, kinda. A 3 speed bike was my primary vehicle for many years, with daily use for a paper route. I changed snapped cables, flats, snapped chains but never had to dig into the shifter. It's reminiscent of the Monty Python "Bicycle Repairman" skit where a town of all superheroes have no such basic skills. Just consider how many folks cannot even change a car tire, depending entirely on roadside service. When it's available quickly, okay, it's nice. But there are times and places you're out of range. And then what? -- jeff jonas

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auctions update
by Evan Koblentz 10 Jun '16

10 Jun '16

As of this morning, the Apple II is above $3,000 and the Sol-20 is above $2,000. Anybody want to guess how high they'll sell?

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It's alive!
by Evan Koblentz 09 Jun '16

09 Jun '16

List has come back to life.

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List test. Please disregard.
by MailmanLists Listgnome 09 Jun '16

09 Jun '16

08:04 AEST 2016-06-10 List test. Please disregard.

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Still not working ...????
by Evan Koblentz 09 Jun '16

09 Jun '16

Sad to say that all day has gone by and I haven't heard back from the list company. :(

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efficiency, put another way
by Herb Johnson 09 Jun '16

09 Jun '16

In the context of the previous discussion - which was about gleaning any values from, or interests today in, vintage computing - my strategy is to say that personal computing and minicomputing of the 1970's and into the 1980's was a *resource poor* environment. "Efficiency" in using scarce resources is a necessity, to get something done. As gains were made in memory, processor complexity, speed and storage capacity, these resources were fairly quickly maxed out - and then improved again, and again. Some of this stuff was crude, some of it was well crafted in the McGuire sense. But at some point - certainly over a decade ago, probably more - computing for most purposes, for most people, provided more than enough resources. Processor speed topped off (any faster and they'd cook). Memory was cheap. Storage was cheap. Even the Internet became cheap and common. There's powerful languages and environments for various domains. What became expensive? *People.* Programmer time, engineering time, production time. Craft is not cheap. Even time itself has become an expense. I call the 21st century a "resource rich* period of "computing" - it's odd to talk about computing now, it's like telling fish about water, it's just part of living. My point - It's hard to conserve when there's an (apparent) abundance. Resource-poor and people-cheap, to resource-rich but people-expensive. Bringing it back to vintage computing..... So one value of preserving vintage computing, is to remind us by example and fact, about the issues of "efficiency", from a time when we had no choice but to be efficient. the tools and methods from then, can be applied in principle now. Why bother? - for the reasons that Jonathan noted, there are times and situations where convenient in-efficiency bites us in the ass. Or as Dave McGuire noted, as a matter of quality. Current resources can be overtaxed when mis-used. Old-school methods and quick fixes don't work well when scaled too large. Smart tools used by the less-informed produce un-scalable results. And so on. Resource-poor to resource-rich; and now to maxed-out or inefficient. That's the argument. So we in vintage computing may be able to offer some perspective in how to solve problems of excessive, at least inefficient, use of resources. Or not....smarter software may be smarter than the programmers, and avoid the worst of these problems. Compared to the 1970's, we have computers now to program computers, they do it better than the worst engineers and programmers. This is annoying to us, who take pride in being smarter and more efficient. Also: old stuff is clunky, boring to many. Those are the counter-arguments. Herb Johnson -- Herbert R. Johnson, New Jersey USA http://www.retrotechnology.com OR .net

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Auction update
by Evan Koblentz 08 Jun '16

08 Jun '16

Bidding on the Apple II is beyond $3,000: http://www.ebay.com/itm/191890608380 Sol-20 is around $1,200: http://www.ebay.com/itm/191890605553

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efficiency, put another way
by Dave McGuire 08 Jun '16

08 Jun '16

[sorry if you see this twice; I sent it to the "old" list in error] To put the efficiency argument another way.. It seems we (the larger "we", societally) have called into question the basic value of efficiency. Is efficiency inherently valuable? I say it is. Many people, however, say it isn't, or at least imply that it isn't, because they say things like "RAM is basically free, so it doesn't matter". (Evan, I know you were speaking as devil's advocate there) The problem is, these people are gratuitously and cavalierly stating that efficiency is no longer important in order to excuse themselves from having to know what they're doing, to absolve themselves of responsibility for creating crap results (crappy software, etc), or to give themselves an "out" by justifying their laziness. I assert that efficiency is inherently good, and laziness is inherently bad. These assertions are, I firmly believe, beyond question. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] efficiency, put another way
by Brian L. Stuart 08 Jun '16

08 Jun '16

Neil Cherry wrote: > Fast (amount of time to do), Good (quality, meets > requirements), and Cheap (overall cost). Pick any 2 I've heard this all my life, but it not really true. To some degree it does say something about the finished product, but it doesn't extend to the process of creating that product. No amount of money will buy time. Throwing more people at a project won't make it happen any faster. The reality is that you can either say what or you can say when, but you can't say both. The greatest project failures I've seen all come down to someone who can't design their way out of a paper bag thinking they can manage their way around this fundamental law. If you like, think of it like the uncertainty principle for project management. The more you know about what is going to be delivered, the less you know about when it's going to be delivered, and vice versa. The effect that the amount of money has on that is lost in the noise. BLS

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] efficiency, put another way
by VAXman＠tmesis.org 08 Jun '16

08 Jun '16

Dan Roganti via vcf-midatlantic writes: >=E2=80=8BI think the term "resource-poor" for describing the 60s, >70s=E2=80= =8B or maybe the 80s is inaccurate It is relative, depending >on your viewpoint - if you keep looking from the 21st century viewpoint >But if you were there in the thick of it back then, it was actually the >norm. So you were expected to design with those constraints Constraints >are a fact of life in engineering Dan Especially, the constraints tying you to a desk until the job is complete. ;)

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] efficiency, put another way
by Dan Roganti 08 Jun '16

08 Jun '16

I think the term "resource-poor" for describing the 60s, 70s or maybe the 80s is inaccurate It is relative, depending on your viewpoint - if you keep looking from the 21st century viewpoint But if you were there in the thick of it back then, it was actually the norm. So you were expected to design with those constraints Constraints are a fact of life in engineering Dan

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] efficiency, put another way
by VAXman＠tmesis.org 08 Jun '16

08 Jun '16

Neil Cherry via vcf-midatlantic writes: >I view efficiency as: > >Fast (amount of time to do), Good (quality, meets requirements), and >Cheap (overall cost). Pick any 2 There's more to weighing in efficiency in today's computing environments than just tossing some faster processor at the problem. Many multiple processors, VLM architectures and NUMA pose issues that can NOT be addressed simply with sloppy programming masked/cured by faster processing. However, if you and or your programmers only have experience with simple desktop type systems, these issues are as foreign a concept as tensor calculus is to a grade schooler. I have seen applications in such environments, well written too, degrade rather quickly because someone configured the environment without consideration for and of the ramifications of these modern system aspects.

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] efficiency, put another way
by VAXman＠tmesis.org 08 Jun '16

08 Jun '16

Dave McGuire via vcf-midatlantic writes: > I assert that efficiency is inherently good, and laziness is >inherently bad. These assertions are, I firmly believe, beyond >question. Dave for President!

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Fully working Woz-signed straight Apple 2 + Lee F.-signed Sol-20 for auction
by Evan Koblentz 07 Jun '16

07 Jun '16

VCFed is doing some fundraising. We're auctioning a fully working and Woz-autographed straight Apple II * and * a fully working and Felsenstein-autographed Processor Tech Sol-20. Both computers are SUPER-CLEAN. Apple II: http://www.ebay.com/itm/191890608380 Sol-20: http://www.ebay.com/itm/191890605553 We're using eBay to maximize the value since we're a non-profit. Have fun!

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] Fully working Woz-signed straight Apple 2 + Lee F.-signed Sol-20 for auction
by Systems Glitch 07 Jun '16

07 Jun '16

> Be sure to drink your Ovaltine? That's it? > A stinken' commercial? Careful, you'll put your eye out! (Amy and I laughed) Thanks, Jonathan

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] OT: people don't understand computers anymore
by Christopher Blackmon 07 Jun '16

07 Jun '16

From: Bill Sudbrink via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic(a)lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> To: 'vcf-midatlantic' <vcf-midatlantic(a)lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> Cc: Bill Sudbrink <wh.sudbrink(a)verizon.net> Sent: Tuesday, June 7, 2016 8:45 PM Subject: Re: [vcf-midatlantic] OT: people don't understand computers anymore Neil Cherry wrote: > On 06/07/2016 04:36 PM, Christopher Blackmon > via vcf-midatlantic wrote: > > Ya'll slow down a minute... I need more popcorn. > > This is the best episode of "Grumpy Old Engineers" > > I've seen in a while! > Hey, you kids, get off my work bench! <grumble-grumble-grumble> Probably doesn't know which end of a soldering iron to grab... <grumble-grumble-grumble> ---- The pointy end, right? :p cb

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