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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] Updated VCF East exhibitors list
by Jeffrey Brace 27 Jan '23

27 Jan '23

Hello Pete, Sorry for the delay. I've been busy. I will update the list by this weekend. I needed to process the exhibits, approve the exhibits, check the description, etc. Jeff On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 12:43 PM Peter Fletcher via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic(a)lists.vcfed.org> wrote: > > I had a friend ask me about attending VCF East this year and wanted a list > of what to expect from the exhibitors. I pointed him to > https://vcfed.org/events/vintage-computer-festival-east/vcf-east-exhibits/ > but there are only two exhibits listed which I assume is not up to date. > > Is there a current list I can show him? > > Thanks! > > -Pete > >

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] x86 question (was:Ideas for VCF 2023 t-shirts)
by Bill Degnan 27 Jan '23

27 Jan '23

As everyone knows in the mid 80's companies making home/small business computers fell under huge pressure to produce IBM compatibles or face going out of business. IBM totally dominated the enitre computer market (PC, Mini, Mainframe) then. There were exceptions of course. 8-bit home computers that were cheap survived, early high-end workstations, desktop publishing machines, etc. Look up the marketing info you will see what I mean. Fast forward to 1997 or so, when "vintage computing" as we know it today started, people wanted to focus on the computers that came before the IBM PC. IT was kind of a rebellion against how boring modern computers at the time had become. In particular interest was the homebrew era (73-79) stuff and the computers by companies who went out of business due to IBM market dominance. Add in the home gaming machines and you have "vintage 1997 vintage computing". That's why Commodore, Atari, Sinclair, etc. produced in the 80's were "OK" but the IBM PC was not. If you wanted to do an exhibit at an early VCF, the peer pressure at the time was to exhibit things like the SOL-20, Altair, RCA Cosmac Elf, etc. Stuff from Byte magazines in 1975 were the show stoppers. There was an equal contingent of cool DEC hardware. Basically the culture was "anything but IBM because IBM made computers boring and corporate" IBM mainframe hardware was OK though. Each subsdequent VCF year brought more and more Commodore, Atari, Tandy and Apple stuff. Today these manufacturers make up a majority of the shows. "vintage 2023 vintage computing" is often dominated by 8-bit hardware, Amiga, MAC, SGI, NeXT, stuff like that. DEC and S-100 systems are getting quite rare in VCF's now, but there are the dihard exhibits of these. And of course this is just a generalization, there are always rare and interesting things from foreign lands, mods, etc. The 30th anniversary of the IBM PC was I think the first time there was an IBM PC exhibit, and it only contained the very first models, CP/M, etc. On Fri, Jan 27, 2023 at 11:11 AM Sentrytv via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic(a)lists.vcfed.org> wrote: > There are so many people out there with IBM and compatibles that are from > the early 80s. > They really should be considered vintage as well as “retro” > > Sent from: > My extremely complicated, hand held electronic device. > > > On Jan 27, 2023, at 10:39 AM, Jeff Galinat via vcf-midatlantic < > vcf-midatlantic(a)lists.vcfed.org> wrote: > > > > I have heard the argument you describe. The x86 PC thing is something I > > never understood at all. The IBM PC was released in 1981 and the XT was > > released in 1983 both predating the Mac. > > I just don’t get it. > > Jeff Galinat > > > >> On Fri, Jan 27, 2023 at 4:39 AM Jeff S via vcf-midatlantic < > >> vcf-midatlantic(a)lists.vcfed.org> wrote: > >> > >> > >> The IBM XT would work, too, but there's still that hanging argument that > >> x86 PC systems will never be considered "vintage" in any way. > >> > >> > >

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] Seeking Applesauce FDC testimonials - museum use
by Dave McGuire 27 Jan '23

27 Jan '23

Ok. That's a tough nut to crack. -Dave On 1/27/23 11:59, drummy wrote: > The Univac tapes are 7 track. > > > > Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Dave McGuire via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic(a)lists.vcfed.org> > Date: 1/27/23 11:41 AM (GMT-05:00) > To: vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic(a)lists.vcfed.org> > Cc: Dave McGuire <mcguire(a)neurotica.com> > Subject: Re: [vcf-midatlantic] Seeking Applesauce FDC testimonials - > museum use > > On 1/27/23 11:40, Douglas Crawford via vcf-midatlantic wrote: > > I welcome a bit of illumination to help me form > > a vision of the totality of the problems. > > On the tape subject, one practical need I'd like to > > crack this year is archiving the UNIVAC 1219 tapes. > > Lets start a new thread on tapes if anyone has more to > > offer at this time. > > We do a lot of tape archiving at LSSM, and can help with some of this. > > Are the Univac's tapes 7-track, or 9? > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA > -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA

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Seeking Applesauce FDC testimonials
by Douglas Crawford 27 Jan '23

27 Jan '23

I'm wondering how comprehensive a solution it has become and how well it works on all supported formats. If anyone recommends it from first hand experience for doing all the disk formats that it is supposed do, please contact me off list. (I have done disk image management with all the varied tools but if Applesause does it all well with one package I may go this way for the museum and warehouse use. I need to know before I set up all the old stand-byes to support our disk imaging) - Doug Crawford VCF Museum Mgr

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] Seeking Applesauce FDC testimonials - museum use
by David Ryskalczyk 27 Jan '23

27 Jan '23

The Applesauce is the only option that has a very easy-to-use GUI that can easily be taught to people who are not familiar or comfortable with command-line. It also has very good support from the developer. As far as I am aware, it is the only device capable of writing copy-protected disks with advanced forms of copy protection such as spiral tracking, though that part is an advanced feature that requires an understanding of copy protection and some manual analysis to mark up start- and stop-write markers. The Applesauce also has a fast imager that is extremely useful for data recovery of non-copy-protected disks, as it minimizes the time that the disk is being read. Additionally, for most formats the Applesauce software is capable of read-only parsing of the filesystem and file extraction. This functionality is leveraged for verification of data in the fast imager. Applesauce (hardware and software) does require a relatively modern Mac as its host computer. For some that has been a roadblock. The other available options are: Kryoflux — extremely expensive institutional license would be required (multiple thousands of dollars per year), potential legal minefield with their institutional agreement (potentially forbidding the use of other options) Supercard Pro — Inexpensive, limited format support Greaseweazle — Inexpensive, open source, good product, CLI interface that is not all that easy to use. Would be highly recommended to have one or more for data recovery and advanced use FluxEngine — Open source, software works with Greaseweazle with no caveats, so it makes the Greaseweazle even more useful for data recovery and advanced use HxC Pauline — Expensive, open source, limited availability, no write support now or soon (they seem more interested in drive emulation) Legacy methods: ImageDisk, Anadisk, old hardware — these all rely on having working older hardware. ImageDisk is less flexible than Applesauce (or for that matter Greaseweazle) as it relies on the capabilities of the PC floppy disk controller, and Applesauce (or Greaseweazle) can write IMDs. As the needs here involve writing out new disks that will then be used in museum computers, the only other option here that is at all viable is the Greaseweazle — or one of the legacy methods. As VCF already has an Applesauce that can be used with single-sided single-density 5.25" disks and 3.5" disks, which would cover A list of formats supported by the Applesauce — likely out of date, more formats keep getting added — is here: https://applesaucefdc.com/what-is-applesauce/ Since Herb mentioned floppy replacement technology and that it comes and goes across periods of years, here is some feedback on that: As for floppy replacement technology, the go-to for PC-style interfaces is the FlashFloppy firmware for the Gotek floppy drive emulators, as well as improved Gotek clones. This firmware is open source and has wide format support. The other option is the HxC emulator firmware, which supports some additional formats and also runs on Gotek emulators, but is sold and is not open source. For other computers and floppy interfaces, it is really on a per-machine basis, so devices do come and go. David > On Jan 27, 2023, at 11:08 AM, Sentrytv via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic(a)lists.vcfed.org> wrote: > > > From: Sentrytv <sentrytv(a)yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [vcf-midatlantic] Seeking Applesauce FDC testimonials - museum use > Date: January 27, 2023 at 11:08:41 AM EST > To: vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic(a)lists.vcfed.org> > > > Personally, maybe a Seminar / class on basics and then get into the details. > Getting to know the hardware, the capabilities, then actually doing some disk imaging and creating. > > Sent from: > My extremely complicated, hand held electronic device. > >> On Jan 27, 2023, at 10:33 AM, David Gesswein via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic(a)lists.vcfed.org> wrote: >> >> Would it be better if a couple people could cover the current options or in >> depth on just the Applesauce? >> >>> On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 04:40:41PM -0500, Douglas Crawford via vcf-midatlantic wrote: >>> Yep. Probably time to do that. >>> It was covered at VCF East classes some years. >>> Maybe time to do it again. >>> Could do it at a workshop too. >>> >>>> On 1/26/2023 3:29 PM, Sentrytv wrote: >>>> Hey here’s an idea. >>>> >>>> For those people who don’t know and are willing to learn about Applesauce and reading / writing old discs. >>>> >>>> How about having a Workshop/seminar on this topic and a having a full demonstration and class about it? >>>> >>>> Mike Rosen >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from: >>>> My extremely complicated, hand held electronic device. >>>> >>>>> On Jan 26, 2023, at 3:23 PM, Douglas Crawford via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic(a)lists.vcfed.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Follow up- >>>>> >>>>> David R. gave me a generous amount of time today on the phone >>>>> and its clear to me expanding our Applesauce >>>>> allow attachment of an IBM type 5 1/4" and 8" drives >>>>> will cover some high 90% of disk creating that we need >>>>> in the museum. It will provide a single method/user interface >>>>> that enable non-expert users to create needed media >>>>> from images on demand across most all the micros in the >>>>> museum- Apple, Atari, Amiga, PC, CP/M. >>>>> >>>>> I plan to get more familiar with the Applesause system >>>>> and the support facilities available. Soon I will >>>>> gather the upgrade and extra materials we would need >>>>> to account for everything to make the expanded system. >>>>> Following that, we will assemble the pieces and work up the >>>>> functional capabilities at workshops. >>>>> >>>>> FYI- >>>>> Media preservation/data recovery is a different effort >>>>> and will follow this effort. It would likely >>>>> be located in the warehouse. I anticipate using a similar >>>>> applesause system for as much as we can, and augment with >>>>> whatever other systems necessary things it cannot do. >>>>> Hopefully folks really interested in working this part >>>>> of the operation will be able to come forward for lending >>>>> expertise. >>>>> >>>>>> On 1/25/2023 7:04 PM, Alexander Jacocks wrote: >>>>>> Doug, >>>>>> AppleSauce is quite a flexible disk imaging and creating system. John Morris has expanded the tool far beyond its original purpose of Apple II disk management. >>>>>> I have used it to create disks of quite a number of formats, and find that it works as described, and is far easier to use than most other imaging tools. >>>>>> Additionally, John is quite receptive to requests for new formats and features. >>>>>> - Alex >>>>>>>> On Jan 25, 2023, at 2:03 PM, Douglas Crawford via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic(a)lists.vcfed.org> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm wondering how comprehensive a solution it >>>>>>> has become and how well it works on all supported >>>>>>> formats. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If anyone recommends it from first hand experience for >>>>>>> doing all the disk formats that it is supposed do, >>>>>>> please contact me off list. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> (I have done disk image management with all the varied >>>>>>> tools but if Applesause does it all well with one package >>>>>>> I may go this way for the museum and warehouse use. I >>>>>>> need to know before I set up all the old stand-byes to >>>>>>> support our disk imaging) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> - Doug Crawford >>>>>>> VCF Museum Mgr >>>> > > >

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Seeking Applesauce FDC testimonials
by Herbert Johnson 27 Jan '23

27 Jan '23

>> Douglas Crawford >> >> I'm wondering how comprehensive a solution it >> has become and how well it works on all supported >> formats. ... I may go this way for the museum .. My general observation of floppy replacement technology, is that it comes and goes over periods of years. I have a long view, so I get skeptical. If a developer gets tired of working on some tech (or worse becomes unavailable), what happens to support for problems and availability of the "product"? Tech that uses then-standard microcontrollers (or flavors of Arduinos) may be hard to obtain when that part goes out-of-support. At the least, you have to get spares while available, and source codes for any software. Morso, if you buy for several systems. I don't know this particular product. But I'm asking about long-term support for reasons stated. I'm curious what other think; perhaps several years is enough, enjoying buying something new every several years, etc. regards Herb -- Herbert R. Johnson, New Jersey in the USA http://www.retrotechnology.com OR .net preserve, recover, restore 1970's computing email: hjohnson AT retrotechnology DOT com or try later herbjohnson AT comcast DOT net

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Someone is selling 1, 274 IC DIP and SIP Chip Sockets for $50 King Of Prussia
by Christian Liendo 26 Jan '23

26 Jan '23

Anyone need bulk sockets? https://philadelphia.craigslist.org/sop/d/king-of-prussia-1274-ic-dip-and-s…

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Updated VCF East exhibitors list
by Peter Fletcher 26 Jan '23

26 Jan '23

I had a friend ask me about attending VCF East this year and wanted a list of what to expect from the exhibitors. I pointed him to https://vcfed.org/events/vintage-computer-festival-east/vcf-east-exhibits/ but there are only two exhibits listed which I assume is not up to date. Is there a current list I can show him? Thanks! -Pete

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Information on Intellec 4 mod 40
by Herbert Johnson 26 Jan '23

26 Jan '23

On 1/23/23 18:23, Jeffrey Brace via vcf-midatlantic wrote: > Someone contacted VCF looking for information on an early intellec 4 > mod 40, a copy of the original RAM based native assembler > Dave McGuire > LSSM received an Intellec 4, a 4 Mod 40, and an 8 Mod 80 this past > fall. Included with the systems was a large amount of documentation > and, I believe, software on paper tape I'm working with Jeff's person. They provided me a ROM image of one of their boards, which contains the same 4040 ROM monitor code as my intellec 4/40 and Kyle Owen's intellec. https://www.retrotechnology.com/restore/int_440.html https://www.retrotechnology.com/restore/intel440_roms.html There's some intellec 4 40 resources around the Web but not too many. So any code or ROMS found on these systems should be evaluated and shared if at all possible. Early-EARLY-days microcomputer systems like these are unique computers by any standards; because there were *no standards* in those days. This is a hard fact to appreciate in a world of consumer computers. Example: The 4/40 never used any mass storage other than paper tape. The 8/80 didn't have Intel-supplied floppy drives; by the time of floppies Intel moved to the Multibus (these aren't Multibus). So, any code would be either paper-tape, or printed source listings, or something archived later onto floppies. Regards Herb -- Herbert R. Johnson, New Jersey in the USA http://www.retrotechnology.com OR .net preserve, recover, restore 1970's computing email: hjohnson AT retrotechnology DOT com or try later herbjohnson AT comcast DOT net

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] rolls of metallic paper
by David Gesswein 25 Jan '23

25 Jan '23

On Wed, Jan 25, 2023 at 02:03:43PM -0500, bob jeffway.com via vcf-midatlantic wrote: I agree on Tektronix. When I was at UMASS in the 70's, we had a printer on the Tektronix 4012 that had some strange paper like that. White crystals grew on the case where the paper came out - kind of strange, I wonder what the technology was? What I am familiar with for the storage tube machines used dry silver paper. It was exposed by a line CRT in the printer then developed with heat. https://w140.com/tekwiki/wiki/4631 Earlier 4610. Title is wrong. https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102662132 They did make a electrostatic one. Never saw it in person. Did use 4610 and 4631 when they were current. https://www.electronixandmore.com/misc/index.php?item=53. This sound different than the aluminum coated paper type previously discussed since it uses toner.

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