- vcf-midatlantic - lists.vcfed.org

Museum Report 2019-05-19
by Jeffrey Brace 19 May '19

19 May '19

We still had visitors in spite of the nice weather. A father and his college-age daughter came in and he explained how modems worked to connect to other computers. She seemed perplexed. In the "Everything on this wall now fits into your pocket" display, the daughter couldn't identify the fax machine or digital answering machine, but she identified the Magellan GPS navigator. I like to quiz "younger" people on what the devices are in the display to see how they are unrecognizable to the younger generation. The next visitors were grandparents with their grandson of about 11 years old. I had him type in a short BASIC program on the C64 with the bouncing ball. He liked it so much that he recorded it on his iPhone. He typed it in pretty well, but I had to help him debug it. Then two couples with high interest. One of them did a picture on deluxe paint and took a picture of his masterpiece. -- ========================================= Jeff Brace Vice President Vintage Computer Federation <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campai…> Virus-free. www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campai…> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] Help with installing 1980s DOS program
by Devin Heitmueller 19 May '19

19 May '19

Hi Herb, On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 11:16 AM Herb Johnson via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic(a)lists.vcfed.org> wrote: > Evan is correct. That is, this user wants what he wants for the reasons > Evan stated; and not as Devin speculated. This caught my attention, > because I resell old Macintosh computer parts and systems. "Old" as in > 68K and PowerPC based, 1980's and 1990's. <snip> Fair enough. I've done my share of maintaining legacy equipment when I was working at the Bell Labs EMC lab, where the computers running the test chambers were considered to be "calibrated equipment" and thus had to be 10+ year old AT&T PCs. I can appreciate the cases where this sort of thing would be necessary. I wouldn't have assumed this to be the case for a lawyer, since most of the ones I know have to share documents electronically with others (or have paralegals that weren't alive in the 1980's that they expect to be able to edit documents), and thus wouldn't still be using ancient word processors. That said, supposedly George R.R. Martin writes his books on WordStar, so I guess anything's possible. Cheers, Devin -- Devin J. Heitmueller http://www.devinheitmueller.com

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Scopewriter Issue Resolved.
by MikeWillegal 18 May '19

18 May '19

I finally found time to properly debug the Scopewriter issue that I have been having. This was noticed by many visiting my VCF east exhibit. Basically, with certain strings being displayed, the string would randomly change. I found that the issue was inherent with the Scopewriter itself, and didn’t have anything to do with the SCELBI interface. The Scopewriter uses a TMS3112 shift register a little bit like an Apple 1 or TV Typewriter to refresh display data. It turns out that the hold time of the low level phase of the clock wasn’t meeting the TMS3112 specs causing the recycled data to be occasionally lost. Changing capacitor C2 to a .1uF value increased the amount of time of the clock being held at low level and solved the problem. It’s interesting how many of the hobby designed products from the mod 70’s have marginal aspects to their designs. Whenever anyone recreates or restores any old electronic device, it often can be a tricky problem to determine whether a problem is introduced or original to the design regards, Mike Willegal

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Connecticut auction tomorrow
by Evan Koblentz 17 May '19

17 May '19

Just heard about this: https://www.auctionzip.com/Listings/3270964.html

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] Help with installing 1980s DOS program
by Neil Cherry 17 May '19

17 May '19

I know of Banks that hadn't stopped using IBM bisync equipment around 2000, I know of a large concrete company who still had DECnet (LAST and LAT) by 2005, a chemical company who has finally gotten rid of the PUP and XNS (not Novell) but still had DECNet LAT by 2010 and a Aluminum Company with DEC LAT and HP Bridging in 2011. I know many of the companies have a plan to migrate but they're milking the 'paid for' tech until they migrate. I'm a bit guilty of holding out, I learned Emacs in 1978 on a keyboard where you needed to know your ASCII to generate control sequences (CR - ^M, LF -^J, TAB - ^I, BS - ^H etc.). And since I learned to type on a typewritter, I do not know of this Enter you speak of. ;-) Oh, and they've changed the Windows applications (yet again) so the old key strokes no longer get you to the features directly. And the way they've hidden the features I need ... well I'm resorting to returning to nroff. ;-) -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry(a)linuxha.com http://www.linuxha.com/ Main site http://linuxha.blogspot.com/ My HA Blog Author of: Linux Smart Homes For Dummies

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] Help with installing 1980s DOS program
by Dean Notarnicola 17 May '19

17 May '19

I agree that it's imperative for us to help keep older systems alive and documented, for historic reasons, as well as to aid someone like this gentlemen who simply wants to continue working as usual. However, in these cases, I put on my IT hat and feel a responsibility to inform them of a data migration plan. Circumstances could prevent usage of the older systems, and data recovery may become challenging or near impossible. Users don't always think ahead to a point where they are not around and someone left behind may need access to what could be valuable information. I've seen it too often. On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 11:35 AM Tony Bogan via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic(a)lists.vcfed.org> wrote: > Herb, you have described a good portion of my life with computers. Putting > aside my interaction with the Phreak/Crack scene in the early to mid 80s, > much of my life has been spent as a User, not a programmer. > I was 14 or so using Money Street on the Apple II to reconcile the > Checking accounts for our boats for the accountant. I used it till probably > 1990 or so, dot matrix printer and all. I could still use it today! > > I had an SE/30 running as a file server until the early 2000s, the list of > machines I’ve used for a decade or more after their discontinuation is long. > > They were a toy when I was 10 and got my first one (Apple II) in 1978. > They were both a tool and a toy from the time I was 12 or 13 right up to > the present. I certainly do more things in today’s world with my modern > machines than I did in the past (webdesign, app Dev, etc) but at my daily > job running my business I still run some software from 10 years ago and > more because it just works, doing the same job it did more than a decade > ago. Meanwhile I have modern machines and software working as well. > > Tony >

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] Help with installing 1980s DOS program
by Tony Bogan 17 May '19

17 May '19

Herb, you have described a good portion of my life with computers. Putting aside my interaction with the Phreak/Crack scene in the early to mid 80s, much of my life has been spent as a User, not a programmer. I was 14 or so using Money Street on the Apple II to reconcile the Checking accounts for our boats for the accountant. I used it till probably 1990 or so, dot matrix printer and all. I could still use it today! I had an SE/30 running as a file server until the early 2000s, the list of machines I’ve used for a decade or more after their discontinuation is long. They were a toy when I was 10 and got my first one (Apple II) in 1978. They were both a tool and a toy from the time I was 12 or 13 right up to the present. I certainly do more things in today’s world with my modern machines than I did in the past (webdesign, app Dev, etc) but at my daily job running my business I still run some software from 10 years ago and more because it just works, doing the same job it did more than a decade ago. Meanwhile I have modern machines and software working as well. Tony

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] Help with installing 1980s DOS program
by Sentrytv 17 May '19

17 May '19

Can't blame these people. Newer versions of software require newer OS, hardware, or peripherals. "If it ain't broke don't fix it!" I have several older systems that I almost never use, but I can if I need to, with older software I have. Mainly older DOS and windows games. Besides I never throw anything out! Mike R. Sent from: My extremely complicated, hand held electronic device. > On May 17, 2019, at 11:00 AM, Herb Johnson via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic(a)lists.vcfed.org> wrote: > > <mime-attachment>

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] Help with installing 1980s DOS program
by Evan Koblentz 17 May '19

17 May '19

>> there's no intrinsic (look it up) Why would you think we don't know that word? On Fri, May 17, 2019, 11:09 AM Herb Johnson via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic(a)lists.vcfed.org> wrote: > > Devin Heitmueller: I would assume there's a good chance that the user > isn't so much > > interested in using an ancient word processor for nostalgia, but > > rather to gain access to some old documents. > > > > Evan Koblentz: Nope. He refuses to upgrade! He had it running for eons > on XP, then that > > went haywire, so he was desperate for someone to get it back running for > > him. > > Evan is correct. That is, this user wants what he wants for the reasons > Evan stated; and not as Devin speculated. This caught my attention, > because I resell old Macintosh computer parts and systems. "Old" as in > 68K and PowerPC based, 1980's and 1990's. > > While many of my customers are just playing with old Macs for nostalgia, > or for non-use interest; a good number of them are "desperately" trying > to keep their original, now-vintage systems running with now-vintage > software. > > Why? 1) they have a stable environment, which they learned to use. It > supported their line of business or work for decades. It still does. So > there's no intrinsic (look it up) reason to change. > > 2) "modern" programs on modern computers add complexity or undesired > features. The MS-DOS environment was either pure command-line, or used > an 80 X 24 text display (in color sometimes) and "escape sequences" on > the keyboard to navigate that screen. Or, yeah, a mouse. For touch > typists, and for users who do repetitive work, keystrokes are faster > than a mouse. Oh - and no networking needed. > > 2a) Some modern equivalents of now-vintage programs, can't do what the > old programs did. Or they do something different. That's annoying to > persons who find it hard to change their established habits. It's more > than annoying, when you don't get the results you want from a "new" > program. The forms look wrong, the images aren't the same, the > calculations aren't the same. Sometimes that matters. > > From a business point of view, they would find it hard to rework > "scripts" and forms to perform the same tasks. Or worse, hard to find > someone able to both understand the "old" and provide the "new". *And*, > provide patient training and support, to the now-new user of this new > set of hardware, operating system, software... on and on. > > I don't offer any of that service, by the way. And many of these > customers know, if they try to go the "replace everything" route, they > will be abandoned with new stuff that won't work for them; and old stuff > that's now "broken" and doesn't work either. In short: total failure. > That's their view, and who am I to argue otherwise? Without offering to > fix it? > > 2b) For some who use their computers with embedded equipment - say a > mass spectrometer - they *can't* change the programming. Or possibly > they can't change the hardware interface, or internal bus-hardware card > (NuBus in the case of desktop Macs, ISA for old PC's, etc.) > > 3) Given the decades of use so far, these users simply want to run the > clock out. They will retire soon; why make efforts to change everything, > only to walk away from it a few years from now? And when the new-person > will simply abandon whatever they've left behind, most likely? "We don't > do that anymore, it was obsolete and the person retired." > > You-all should get the idea, at this point. For many people, use of a > computer was yet another part of the "mechanics" of doing their job or > running their business or service. They weren't programmers. Changing > programs and computers, was simply not necessary, for a stable service. > And believe it or not, there are still niche businesses, and > long-running equipment, where "stability" is more important than "new". > And where "new" doesn't necessarily mean "better". > > Many of you reading all this, if you haven't stopped already, have > decided this is dead-end thinking, old-people who lack flexibility, or > just incomprehensible. I only bothered to post it, because, well, this > is a list about vintage computing, right? You are interested in vintage > computers, right? Do-ya-THINK, some people used these for *purpose* at > some time? And if so, maybe some people *still* use them for purpose, now? > > And, even so, it's worth preserving how and why these computers and > programs were used. It's already largely forgotten. But that's another > discussion. > > regards, > Herb Johnson > > > > -- > Herbert R. Johnson, New Jersey in the USA > http://www.retrotechnology.com OR .net > preserve, recover, restore 1970's computing > email: hjohnson AT retrotechnology DOT com > or try later herbjohnson AT retrotechnology DOT info >

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Help with installing 1980s DOS program
by Herb Johnson 17 May '19

17 May '19

> Devin Heitmueller: I would assume there's a good chance that the user isn't so much > interested in using an ancient word processor for nostalgia, but > rather to gain access to some old documents. > > Evan Koblentz: Nope. He refuses to upgrade! He had it running for eons on XP, then that > went haywire, so he was desperate for someone to get it back running for > him. Evan is correct. That is, this user wants what he wants for the reasons Evan stated; and not as Devin speculated. This caught my attention, because I resell old Macintosh computer parts and systems. "Old" as in 68K and PowerPC based, 1980's and 1990's. While many of my customers are just playing with old Macs for nostalgia, or for non-use interest; a good number of them are "desperately" trying to keep their original, now-vintage systems running with now-vintage software. Why? 1) they have a stable environment, which they learned to use. It supported their line of business or work for decades. It still does. So there's no intrinsic (look it up) reason to change. 2) "modern" programs on modern computers add complexity or undesired features. The MS-DOS environment was either pure command-line, or used an 80 X 24 text display (in color sometimes) and "escape sequences" on the keyboard to navigate that screen. Or, yeah, a mouse. For touch typists, and for users who do repetitive work, keystrokes are faster than a mouse. Oh - and no networking needed. 2a) Some modern equivalents of now-vintage programs, can't do what the old programs did. Or they do something different. That's annoying to persons who find it hard to change their established habits. It's more than annoying, when you don't get the results you want from a "new" program. The forms look wrong, the images aren't the same, the calculations aren't the same. Sometimes that matters. From a business point of view, they would find it hard to rework "scripts" and forms to perform the same tasks. Or worse, hard to find someone able to both understand the "old" and provide the "new". *And*, provide patient training and support, to the now-new user of this new set of hardware, operating system, software... on and on. I don't offer any of that service, by the way. And many of these customers know, if they try to go the "replace everything" route, they will be abandoned with new stuff that won't work for them; and old stuff that's now "broken" and doesn't work either. In short: total failure. That's their view, and who am I to argue otherwise? Without offering to fix it? 2b) For some who use their computers with embedded equipment - say a mass spectrometer - they *can't* change the programming. Or possibly they can't change the hardware interface, or internal bus-hardware card (NuBus in the case of desktop Macs, ISA for old PC's, etc.) 3) Given the decades of use so far, these users simply want to run the clock out. They will retire soon; why make efforts to change everything, only to walk away from it a few years from now? And when the new-person will simply abandon whatever they've left behind, most likely? "We don't do that anymore, it was obsolete and the person retired." You-all should get the idea, at this point. For many people, use of a computer was yet another part of the "mechanics" of doing their job or running their business or service. They weren't programmers. Changing programs and computers, was simply not necessary, for a stable service. And believe it or not, there are still niche businesses, and long-running equipment, where "stability" is more important than "new". And where "new" doesn't necessarily mean "better". Many of you reading all this, if you haven't stopped already, have decided this is dead-end thinking, old-people who lack flexibility, or just incomprehensible. I only bothered to post it, because, well, this is a list about vintage computing, right? You are interested in vintage computers, right? Do-ya-THINK, some people used these for *purpose* at some time? And if so, maybe some people *still* use them for purpose, now? And, even so, it's worth preserving how and why these computers and programs were used. It's already largely forgotten. But that's another discussion. regards, Herb Johnson -- Herbert R. Johnson, New Jersey in the USA http://www.retrotechnology.com OR .net preserve, recover, restore 1970's computing email: hjohnson AT retrotechnology DOT com or try later herbjohnson AT retrotechnology DOT info

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