June 2016 - vcf-midatlantic

Re: [vcf-midatlantic] Anybody want to "make odds" on Evan's announcement?
by Chris Fala 07 Jun '16

07 Jun '16

Bil Herd will speak at VCF East XII. (I can't afford to lose a bet.) On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 5:43 PM, Bill Sudbrink via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic(a)lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote: > 1:1 - Mr. Wozniak will speak at VCF West > 10:1 - Mr. Allen will speak at VCR West > 50:1 - Mr. Gates will speak at VCF West > > > >

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Anybody want to "make odds" on Evan's announcement?
by Bill Sudbrink 07 Jun '16

07 Jun '16

1:1 - Mr. Wozniak will speak at VCF West 10:1 - Mr. Allen will speak at VCR West 50:1 - Mr. Gates will speak at VCF West

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OT: people don't understand computers anymore
by Herb Johnson 07 Jun '16

07 Jun '16

As it's quiet on the maillist, I'll ask about something on the edges of vintage computing. People today - I use the phrase "in the 21st century" - don't seem to know anything about how computers work, anymore. I'd like a little feedback, not a huge discussion (and not a gripe session), about how common that ignorance is, what we as vintage computer owners should do - once I clarify what I mean, and provide an example. It's a subject relevant to vintage computing, because that affects what we are obliged to tell people, to explain, when showing our vintage systems. It's also relevant, because one reason to preserve and operate these vintage systems, is to SHOW how these things worked, to preserve by example their fundamental nature and approach to computing (personal or otherwise). It's a preservation of a level of direct knowledge, which was necessary "then", but not necessary "now". Evidence for "now": recently, someone contacted me as part of my vintage-Mac services, with a vague request. Something close to "I'm trying to read and edit a file from a 1994 Mac, in an obsolete file format from vintage publishing software. Can you help me open and reformat that file?" It took three or so emails, to get the particulars, which are easy to describe either as hardware or software (IDE hard drive, 6300 model Mac, Aldus Pagemaker 6). At some point, some "technical service" told this person they could "read the file from the hard drive" - yet this person couldn't say if they HAD the file on "their PC". Or even clearly say they had a Windows PC or a Mac PC. I had to keep asking questions to get these basics. Why? Because they are no longer active questions. "Everyone" uses Windows (a few use Macs, some use Linux, but context quickly establishes which). Those OS's do everything by magic now, little user intervention needed. Even the computer dealers (by my experience) don't know "how" they work, they just work. On hardware, "if it fits, it works". Many people don't know how to find a file through a file directory (desktop folders); the programs "know" where they are. These people get lost, even doing backups. I think that's pretty fundamental. Oh - Ted Nelson, at a VCF-E dinner, said to me he tried to teach a computer course at a community college. He said "I gave up in three weeks, because the students didn't know (bleep) about computers". That's my experience today. I get this a lot. Again - I'm not looking for a discussion that rags on "today's computer users are idiots". That's not the point. the point is, what do we as vintage computer demonstrators do, when confronted with such people, who look at our systems? Also: I appreciate I have a point of view, not shared by all vintage computer owners. Some may see their stuff, as say "neat gaming systems that we all enjoyed at a similar time in our lives" and simply want to operate them with others who share that same experience. Whether the game is downloaded from the Internet or from an original ROM cartridge is irrelevant. Or, maybe, played on an emulator. I'm aware of that point of view. If those with such interests, have parallel experience with "people today don't appreciate 1990's video games", that would be informative to me, in this discussion. OK? These are real questions of real interest to me. How do we do, what we do with vintage computers, in this context? This is not a rag-on-morons gripe session. OK? Herb Johnson with a point of view retrotechnology.com -- Herbert R. Johnson, New Jersey USA http://www.retrotechnology.com OR .net

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] OT: people don't understand computers anymore
by Herb Johnson 07 Jun '16

07 Jun '16

I'm working up some responses, but I'm about to "throw a flag". A good part of the discussion has become "why engineers today are no good at the deep stuff". I'm a BSEE myself, I get that. But my question is not so much about "how can we reach the engineers of today or tomorrow?". And certainly not about teaching differential equations, or linked-lists. My question as posed, was how we as vintage computer owners, can reach and inform - at least answer some questions, catch the eye - of ORDINARY 21st century people who see our stuff and show some interest? To the technical point: ordinary people (but including some engineers) lack familiarity with the simple but "deep" operating principles and features of these ancient devices and software. And they lack the notion that stuff like this was repaired, even redesigned, and built - often by semi-technical people of the era? And they can *still* be repaired and operated today? So what demonstrations, explanations, and presentations, will show the context and operation and "meaning" of these 1970's, 80's and even 90's systems and artifacts? To today's mere mortals? ...all in the light of the 21st century circumstances many of you have described, either for the non-techical masses, or our recent engineering colleagues. I'll post some EE-type responses, but my point is not about them, that's the easy lift. herb BSEE 1976 -- Herbert R. Johnson, New Jersey USA http://www.retrotechnology.com OR .net

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] OT: people don't understand computers anymore
by Dave McGuire 07 Jun '16

07 Jun '16

On 06/07/2016 02:03 PM, Bill Sudbrink via vcf-midatlantic wrote: > It's a bit astonishing to me too. We get job candidates > with CS degrees from reputable universities who don't > know what a register is, can't explain how basic sorts > work or why you would even want to know. In my opinion, > the most evil phrase to come out of a software engineer's > mouth is "I don't want to have to think about...". Yup, > it's all abstracted away. You get a "container class" > with "iterators" and "find" methods and you're all set. > Not fast enough? Throw more hardware at it. > > This is raising my blood pressure... gotta stop. I know exactly how you feel. The shift toward this type of thinking has been building for a long time. It's exactly why I moved entirely into embedded systems development, where we still code in assembler a lot of the time, and we still know how computers actually work and how code actually gets executed. And for people who think this shift is a "good thing": Bullshit. This is the sort of "progress" that landed us in a position where an operating system requires billions of bytes of RAM just to boot. Get some perspective and look at the bigger picture. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] OT: people don't understand computers anymore
by Neil Cherry 07 Jun '16

07 Jun '16

On 06/07/2016 02:34 PM, Christopher Blackmon via vcf-midatlantic wrote: > And here I was thinking it was the place the cashiers stuck my money > after giving me an ever dwindling amount of "stuff." Wait, you don't use I-Pay? Bout you are old school ... (ducks for cover). -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry(a)linuxha.com http://www.linuxha.com/ Main site http://linuxha.blogspot.com/ My HA Blog Author of: Linux Smart Homes For Dummies

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] OT: people don't understand computers anymore
by william degnan 07 Jun '16

07 Jun '16

Sorry to be simplistic, but most people only do things when it's in their economic interest. We live today among an absolute glut of supply and disposable computers. There is no incentive to repair when replace is faster and cheaper. It is foolish to try to fix something that can be replaced. People are doing the "right thing" by not bothering. It may simply be that the "get under the hood" mentality has skipped a generation or two. Interest will return as soon as it becomes economic to fix things again. Very few people torture over the electronics of computing just for the heck of it, without some sort of short or long term expected return on their investment. With such a high percentage of people graduating from HS and not being able to read...the world is changing. b

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] OT: people don't understand computers anymore
by Neil Cherry 07 Jun '16

07 Jun '16

On 06/07/2016 02:03 PM, Bill Sudbrink via vcf-midatlantic wrote: > Neil Cherry wrote: >> I'm a bit old school, can't quite understand how >> those in computers can't understand the underlying >> principles of the computer (hardware and software). >> But along those same lines we're abstracting so >> much of this that we don't need to understand it >> that well. > > It's a bit astonishing to me too. We get job candidates > with CS degrees from reputable universities who don't > know what a register is, It's where the heat comes out of the floor or wall. ;-) > can't explain how basic sorts > work or why you would even want to know. In my opinion, > the most evil phrase to come out of a software engineer's > mouth is "I don't want to have to think about...". Yup, Rule of thumb, but that's supposed to come with experience, experience from knowledge and mistakes (10 aw sh*ts to 1 at-a-boy). Actually these containers/abstractions make the work possible (especially in networking). And I forget my sorts but I know why (complexity) but that won't get me a job anymore (and that terrifies me). > it's all abstracted away. You get a "container class" > with "iterators" and "find" methods and you're all set. > Not fast enough? Throw more hardware at it. Corporations don't want engineers, they want drones and with AI they'll get just that (save that rant for another day). It's the march of progress ... -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry(a)linuxha.com http://www.linuxha.com/ Main site http://linuxha.blogspot.com/ My HA Blog Author of: Linux Smart Homes For Dummies

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] OT: people don't understand computers anymore
by Dean Notarnicola 07 Jun '16

07 Jun '16

Bill, completely agreed. The depressing result is that, without underlying knowledge of the systems they are programming, these "software engineers" have no idea how to troubleshoot an issue beyond their code, or how to code efficiently. This is not an entirely new phenomenon. I knew plenty of Cobol programmers back in the day who knew practically zero about how or why the underlying systems worked. The best programmers I have known also had a very good understanding of the hardware and communication channels. On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 2:03 PM, Bill Sudbrink via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic(a)lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote: > Neil Cherry wrote: > > I'm a bit old school, can't quite understand how > > those in computers can't understand the underlying > > principles of the computer (hardware and software). > > But along those same lines we're abstracting so > > much of this that we don't need to understand it > > that well. > > It's a bit astonishing to me too. We get job candidates > with CS degrees from reputable universities who don't > know what a register is, can't explain how basic sorts > work or why you would even want to know. In my opinion, > the most evil phrase to come out of a software engineer's > mouth is "I don't want to have to think about...". Yup, > it's all abstracted away. You get a "container class" > with "iterators" and "find" methods and you're all set. > Not fast enough? Throw more hardware at it. > > This is raising my blood pressure... gotta stop. > > Bill S. > > > >

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] OT: people don't understand computers anymore
by chrisjpf33＠gmail.com 07 Jun '16

07 Jun '16

And that is why we have garbage software today! On Jun 7, 2016, at 2:03 PM, Bill Sudbrink via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic(a)lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote: Neil Cherry wrote: > I'm a bit old school, can't quite understand how > those in computers can't understand the underlying > principles of the computer (hardware and software). > But along those same lines we're abstracting so > much of this that we don't need to understand it > that well. It's a bit astonishing to me too. We get job candidates with CS degrees from reputable universities who don't know what a register is, can't explain how basic sorts work or why you would even want to know. In my opinion, the most evil phrase to come out of a software engineer's mouth is "I don't want to have to think about...". Yup, it's all abstracted away. You get a "container class" with "iterators" and "find" methods and you're all set. Not fast enough? Throw more hardware at it. This is raising my blood pressure... gotta stop. Bill S.

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