May 2020 - vcf-midatlantic - lists.vcfed.org

Atari promotional video from 1983
by Jeffrey Brace 12 May '20

12 May '20

I thought the Mindlink interface was fascinating. Too bad it was never released. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EphW6DjNEEk -- ========================================= Jeff Brace Vice President & Board Member, VCF East Showrunner Vintage Computer Federation http://www.vcfed.org/ jeffrey(a)vcfed.org

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How To Geek article on floppy data recovery
by Herb Johnson 11 May '20

11 May '20

Jeff Brace suggests: https://www.howtogeek.com/669331/how-to-read-a-floppy-disk-on-a-modern-pc-o… A link to a literally geeky article, mostly on using USB devices that happen to operate certain floppy drives. Then it gets to real methods: find an old PC or Mac, read your disks, transfer the results (somehow). The article finishes up its review of USB devices to read common PC 3.5 / 5.25 diskettes and Mac 3.5" diskettes, with this wise advice for REAL floppy diskettes: "Luckily, there are other resources if you require something more complex, like accessing an 8-inch floppy drive that contains CP/M files. http://www.retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/s_drives_howto.html Herb Johnson maintains an impressive site full of technical data on various floppy disk systems if you’d like to learn more about how they work." http://www.retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/s_drives.html I couldn't have said it better myself. ;) The real meat on floppy drives and diskettes is: http://www.retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/drive.html I was going to post a more considered response to the article Jeff linked to. But Jeff only posted a link, why should I post a lecture in reply? I'll just say, that description and the modern items it references, versus the ancient things it references; simply reminds me of the gulf between 21st century consumer-digital-users, and 20th century computer owners and those who restore those systems and objects today. And, the kinds of junk that's sold which pretends to be some kind of "USB to floppy drive" device. I'm glad to find, my Web site still has utility; and why that's so. Regards, Herb -- Herbert R. Johnson, New Jersey in the USA http://www.retrotechnology.com OR .net preserve, recover, restore 1970's computing email: hjohnson AT retrotechnology DOT com or try later herbjohnson AT retrotechnology DOT info

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How To Geek article on floppy data recovery
by Herb Johnson 11 May '20

11 May '20

> There are a number of newer tools, for imaging of disks, for preservation. > > I've been closely watching this one [called Fluxengine] > http://cowlark.com/fluxengine/index.html > > The author is working on support for a lot of common formats, and > additionally, a number of the 80s-90s dedicated word processor formats. > It's a simple and rather nifty solution. > > Also, of course, it's 100% opens source hardware and software, which always > makes me happy! - Alex This reply is long, because I'm arguing in opposition, and that means I have to make a case about, and explain about. But I'll save some people, some time. I"m going to fuss about these microcontrollers becoming obsolete. If you don't care about that, save time and stop reading here. ----------- Well, I read some of the support information on the Fluxengine. Also I looked recently, at the Greaseweasel. Both these methodologies use some kind of $10 - $20 commodity microcontroller; and that's their problem in my opinion. Those interested can look up both and size them up, so I won't talk about details and features. The Greaseweasel uses a STM32 microcontroller chip on a board called "a Blue Pill". Problem with that (in my opinion) is, that chip isn't just one chip produced identically. There's knockoffs and fakes, that is less-featured chip versions remarked or not remarked. And since that "product" is more than five years old apparently, it's somewhat out of favor (that's my conclusion, it seems hard to find except on eBay). Bottom line, it's not now produced by bigger named hobby or industrial companies; they all seem to come from ebay/Amazon small producers. At literally a few dollars each, the only way to make more money from these, is to use cheaper components or reduced feature components. For instance: the 3.3V regulators fail because they are undersized for power. When I looked around Amazon for these, the reviews per seller were all "these are fakes because". This is not just Herb Johnson's problem. The Greaseweasel support page on github, has a section on how to recognize fakes with performance and visual tests. It does not have, a section on where to buy these. Apparently one has to join a Facebook group to get answers and further support. I won't do that, but someone offered to look there for me, to see if they discuss suppliers. No word yet on that. "Why is this a problem?" Specifically: some of the knockoff boards fail, apparently, because their 3.3V regulators burn up. Others, lack some useful features or even critical features (enough memory for instance). And in the longer term, the ability to obtain these items at all, may end. In between, the means to (say) assemble the code or download the code into the device, may become obsolete or unavailable. In general, the problem with end-of-production items is this: Because you and I are dealing with *vintage computing*. We deal with technology that's *decades* old, not last month. When products fall out of production, how do you get more? When things break, how do you fix them? When you can't get the programming debugging tools from the manufacturer (or producers), you have to find old archives of them. In the real world, this stuff is normal. Things don't persist. You just move on to what's current and throw out the old. We in vintage computing, can't do that by definition. OK? If you disagree, stop reading here, sorry I wasted your time fussing about stuff getting old. ----------------------- I described at length the problem with Greaseweasel hardware, because I'll make the same argument as a *prediction* for Fluxengine. It uses a "Cypress PSoC5LP CY8CKIT-059 development board" for $10. That's apparently some ARM processor with FPGA (programmable logic). At this point, Cypress (a leading chip producer) is selling them direct. Let's check... yep, $10 from cypress.com or $20 from major distributors, plus shipping. One expects delays due to Coronavirus disrupting manufacture and shipping except from USA stocks. I have another objection, to programmable logic. All those PLD's are unique by model and brand. They simply don't stay in production for many years. Worse, the software tools needed to program those specific devices, become unsupported in several years. There's no standards for such tools and software, other than some data formats, so you are stuck with that brand's tool-set. This is, of course, an intended consequence. Figure that out. I checked the datasheets for the product: they date from early 2015. That's about the same age as the "Blue Pill". But this is still produced (or at least offered as current) by Cypress. Also: since this has a very particular programmable-logic set-of-features, it may be hard to knock-off the chip by an unlicensed company. That's my guess. So: looking at Amazon, they only sell a book. Looking at eBay, There's a couple units from the UK for $28-$33 with shipping. I'd not buy from Europe right now... a few are US sold but essentially it's left-over stocks. So: again in my opinion: while this product is still in manufacturer's production, it suffers from being too proprietary - Cypress will lose interest someday soon. Also, there's that unique-programming problem, figuring out how-to-program those PLA's. If you aren't gonna reprogram one of these puppies, I guess that doesn't matter, until there's a Fluxengine update you can't update. And in closing .... The reason I'm familiar with this kind of "these go obsolete" arguments, is because I've seen this show before. Over the last few decades, various modern means to read ancient floppy diskettes have been produced. They have become in-favor and discussed and distributed. Then the developers lose interest; then the users lose interest; and they go out of production and use. Over geologic time (several years), these things simply come and go. So the vintage computers remain, but these modern devices do not. That's about as simple as I can put the argument. Regards, Herb Johnson -- Herbert R. Johnson, New Jersey in the USA http://www.retrotechnology.com OR .net preserve, recover, restore 1970's computing email: hjohnson AT retrotechnology DOT com or try later herbjohnson AT retrotechnology DOT info

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Gowanas E-waste Warehouse shutting down
by Jeffrey Brace 10 May '20

10 May '20

The Gowanus E-waste Warehouse which for the past (8 years?) has taken in electronics waste including vintage computers is shutting down. Most likely it is due to Covid-19 and a decrease in sales. They had a "store" where they sold used items which they sometimes refurbished. In any case you can call to make an appointment for 30 minutes to see what they have and there is a limit of 2 people inside at a time. You must wear a face mask and gloves. Here is their number: (718) 858-8777. Address: 469 President Street At Nevins Street Brooklyn, NY, 11215 Here is a YouTube of what they had 2 years ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTWx3bIN7qs Here are photos from 1 week ago: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1W3kr346ayyvOcw5eQ03JM5e4q83W5wgT?us… There is no telling what they have available now without going there in person. -- ========================================= Jeff Brace Vice President & Board Member, VCF East Showrunner Vintage Computer Federation http://www.vcfed.org/ jeffrey(a)vcfed.org

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is there any way to archive / read Facebook offline?
by Jeffrey Jonas 10 May '20

10 May '20

I understand this circumvents Facebook's revenue model but I need a way to archive (or at least take a snapshot) of a facebook group's page. My google-fu is lacking: I found no stand alone utility, web site or browser plugin. Any clues or hints? Doing a "save page" resulted in a page that does not render properly.

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] How To Geek article on floppy data recovery
by gsteemso 10 May '20

10 May '20

Hi all, >> On May 8, 2020, at 2:45 PM, Herb Johnson <hjohnson(a)retrotechnology.info> wrote: > > So, Gordon S. writes, something like this. He buys-in, that these > floppy-recover solutions, are made from currently available hardware, > but that hardware goes away over time. So, he says, why not implement on > widely available and well-sourced hardware? Yep, pretty much. > Well, I reject the limitation "cheaply". > That constrains any modern > solutions to the hell of rapid obsolescence and proprietary solutions. > That's the current strategy. I'm being blunt but brief. At $10, $20 > single-board single-chip solutions, how does any hobbyist outdesign > *that* with more persistent hardware? *cough* Uh. I must apologize -- I was a bit sloppy in my wording, and should have written "inexpensive" there. By "cheap" I only meant "less expensive than buying, restoring, configuring, and operating an obsolete peecee for the same purpose". I quite agree that trying to do anything worthwhile with inadequate materials is a fool's errand. > The vintage hardware interface, is either a floppy drive for data > recovery; or a floppy drive controller, for diskette emulators (not > discussed but the complimentary device). Well, po-TAE-toe, po-TAUGHT-oe, > to a first order. That's not the hard part. I was fairly certain that would be the case, but it never hurts to check my assumptions. As you point out, if you go back a few years floppy controllers were not monolithic -- which (I infer) meant they did not necessarily present a wholly consistent interface to whatever host system was involved. A bit further back than that, there wasn't even a standard interface to the _drive_. How flexible _does_ a floppy controller have to be for maximal usefulness? > On FPGAs, and the hard part. [...] it comes down to the design practice, of massive > oversampling of floppy data streams, to extract arbitrary-rates of > binary data relatively fast. [...] So: one ether > borrows cheep ARM-class devices that do that, or cheep FPLA devices > which do that, or both. Because of that "cheap" constraint. Shrug. > > [...] the cheat is to sample like hell and let > post-1990's computers sort out the results in software. Fair enough. True. This all looks simpler in my eyes than I've been getting the impression is assumed, though. If the goal can truly be reduced, in hardware terms at least, to recording a high-resolution image of the disk's magnetic state -- why in the heck is that considered so challenging? Please check my reasoning here... I figure that current incarnations of 6502 and z80 CPUs are more than an order of magnitude faster than the first ones were. A parallel I/O chip to bit-bang the stepper motor controls is a _commodity_ item, as are ADCs to digitize the signal from the drive head. The rest is just dumping the digitized data into a buffer, and we all know that widely-used disk-image formats can remain actively supported for decades. Put a dirt-simple, old-school serial port on the wretched thing to control it -- they've been introducing "better" replacements for 40 years, and we still have RS232 et al because they were ubiquitous -- and voila. What am I overlooking, here? > I appreciate Gordon's point, that functionality in modern devices is a > matter of programming, and reprogramming. That's fine, for those who > enjoy modern embedded programming. This! This right here. Why is _every_ solution to this stuff I've seen done with some microcontroller? In a case like this, simpler is, well, _simpler_. We have, and maintain, and in many cases can _build_ hardware that works exactly the same as it might have 40 years ago, at four or five orders of magnitude lower cost. Is there really any hardware tinkerer on this mailing list who would resist designing something around (say) a 65C02, on the basis that there'd be no support for it in 5 years? Try and say _that_ about the FPGA of the week. > But when the hardware to be > programmed changes "too much"; the old software becomes obsolete. > Yesterday's FPLAs can't be programmed with today's FPLA tools. The codes > are changed too. The binaries are useless, even proprietary. That was my > point! And mine! This sort of conversation has been called "being in violent agreement" by a friend of mine. *grin* > [...] The 1990's solution - the Catweasel, an ISA or PCI > bit-sampling controller on PC's? Last I checked, there were five-six > "installation solutions" for running that puppy. Surprisingly, each > developer came up with their own software to drive it. Go figure. [...] That thing sounded great in principle... but getting one _and_ a host system which could actually run it was far beyond my means at the time, and the entire project was long-out-of-production unobtainium by the time that changed for me. The whole experience left a very foul taste in my mouth. > So: walk through this with me. What floppy control hardware is pretty > much standardized, available, and stable; year after year and even into > decades? and what software to support what software to drive it, has > those qualities? Answer: XT/AT/386 class PC's and MS-DOS. And that's why > solutions like "Imagedsk" / MS-DOS / ISA floppy controllers / IMG files > just keep on workin'. Yep. But if you never used one, never had a reason to get used to them, and really don't enjoy fighting with one to keep it operational, I personally feel that an imaging station built around one does not enhance the fun of retrocomputing. YMMV. > But they don't work for 68K Mac disk formats, Apple II disk formats, > etc. etc. Well, mostly. There are a handful of really clever programs that basically take over an older pc's floppy controller at the lowest possible level and do unnatural things to it, with impressive results; I vaguely recall using one called "Omniflop", or something to that effect, that was able to read & write Commodore 1581 floppies and -- IIRC -- read but not write an 800K Mac floppy. If you had a compatible FDC the thing could do a surprising amount -- though, as you point out, not everything. > [...] Sorry for the long lecture, I got a real question and it took time to > answer it. Hope this did that. It did indeed! Like all good explanations, it got me to think through just what my assumptions are -- and, potentially, what assumptions I ought to make instead. Regards, Gordon S.

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Geeks, retro-geeks and curmudgeons - a reply to Dr. S100
by Jack Rubin 09 May '20

09 May '20

Hi Herb - Hard to reply directly to your post since I only get the vcf digest, but a couple of points re new modes of disc (I'm an HP fan) imaging. 1) The flavor-of-the-day MCU or whatever isn't as important as maintaining accessible disk images and metadata. Flux level transcriptions weren't really practical when Dave Dunfield was building his ImageDisk system, so we should be thankful for all the extra CPU cycles available to us today, especially in a $15 package. 2) The approach is a little different but the philosophy is the same - for ImageDisk stuff, I still have a Dell 486 with all the right stuff, including an FDADAP and a Thinker Toys 8" floppy, but I also have a couple virtual machines with the proper toolchains installed to control a few Arduinos and PSoCs for the new stuff that demands a full software ecosystem beyond the hardware. More important, today's cutting edge developers can still read (and write?) .imd files. I was thinking about this last night as I was installing and configuring all the stuff necessary to start working on my first Verilog project. It took me a lot longer to get the point where I could blink a light on the demo board than it would have to reconfigure a CP/M bios for a new serial card and sysgen a new system. Be well and stay safe, Jack

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speaking of end times
by Bill Degnan 08 May '20

08 May '20

Ebay listing for an Commdore C128D "new in box" (more or less) https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Commodore-128D-Personal-Computer-NEW-IN-BO… $1600 and rising. Also there is a DEC LINC 8 north of $9000 right now. Bill

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] A sign of the End Times ...
by Christian Liendo 08 May '20

08 May '20

Well my 6501 cost me a lot of money, my 4004s not so much On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 1:59 PM Bill Dromgoole via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic(a)lists.vcfed.org> wrote: > > 6501’s? > > > From: Christian Liendo via vcf-midatlantic > Sent: Friday, May 8, 2020 1:16 PM > To: vcf-midatlantic > Cc: Christian Liendo > Subject: Re: [vcf-midatlantic] A sign of the End Times ... > > Still cheaper then 6502s > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/Early-MOS-MCS-6502-cpu-chip-white-ceramic-gold-leg… > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-white-MOS-MCS-6502-cpu-chip-with-gold-legs-Us… > > Seriously though something happened where they all shot up in price. >

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A sign of the End Times ...
by Herb Johnson 08 May '20

08 May '20

https://www.ebay.com/itm/c4004-intel-central-processing-unit-vintage-cpu-1s… What other captions could one write, about this auction of nine ceramic-gold 4004 processors? Regards I guess, Herb -- Herbert R. Johnson, New Jersey in the USA http://www.retrotechnology.com OR .net preserve, recover, restore 1970's computing email: hjohnson AT retrotechnology DOT com or try later herbjohnson AT retrotechnology DOT info

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