- vcf-midatlantic - lists.vcfed.org

Re: [vcf-midatlantic] OT: people don't understand computers anymore
by Dave McGuire 07 Jun '16

07 Jun '16

On 06/07/2016 02:03 PM, Bill Sudbrink via vcf-midatlantic wrote: > It's a bit astonishing to me too. We get job candidates > with CS degrees from reputable universities who don't > know what a register is, can't explain how basic sorts > work or why you would even want to know. In my opinion, > the most evil phrase to come out of a software engineer's > mouth is "I don't want to have to think about...". Yup, > it's all abstracted away. You get a "container class" > with "iterators" and "find" methods and you're all set. > Not fast enough? Throw more hardware at it. > > This is raising my blood pressure... gotta stop. I know exactly how you feel. The shift toward this type of thinking has been building for a long time. It's exactly why I moved entirely into embedded systems development, where we still code in assembler a lot of the time, and we still know how computers actually work and how code actually gets executed. And for people who think this shift is a "good thing": Bullshit. This is the sort of "progress" that landed us in a position where an operating system requires billions of bytes of RAM just to boot. Get some perspective and look at the bigger picture. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] OT: people don't understand computers anymore
by Neil Cherry 07 Jun '16

07 Jun '16

On 06/07/2016 02:34 PM, Christopher Blackmon via vcf-midatlantic wrote: > And here I was thinking it was the place the cashiers stuck my money > after giving me an ever dwindling amount of "stuff." Wait, you don't use I-Pay? Bout you are old school ... (ducks for cover). -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry(a)linuxha.com http://www.linuxha.com/ Main site http://linuxha.blogspot.com/ My HA Blog Author of: Linux Smart Homes For Dummies

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] OT: people don't understand computers anymore
by william degnan 07 Jun '16

07 Jun '16

Sorry to be simplistic, but most people only do things when it's in their economic interest. We live today among an absolute glut of supply and disposable computers. There is no incentive to repair when replace is faster and cheaper. It is foolish to try to fix something that can be replaced. People are doing the "right thing" by not bothering. It may simply be that the "get under the hood" mentality has skipped a generation or two. Interest will return as soon as it becomes economic to fix things again. Very few people torture over the electronics of computing just for the heck of it, without some sort of short or long term expected return on their investment. With such a high percentage of people graduating from HS and not being able to read...the world is changing. b

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] OT: people don't understand computers anymore
by Neil Cherry 07 Jun '16

07 Jun '16

On 06/07/2016 02:03 PM, Bill Sudbrink via vcf-midatlantic wrote: > Neil Cherry wrote: >> I'm a bit old school, can't quite understand how >> those in computers can't understand the underlying >> principles of the computer (hardware and software). >> But along those same lines we're abstracting so >> much of this that we don't need to understand it >> that well. > > It's a bit astonishing to me too. We get job candidates > with CS degrees from reputable universities who don't > know what a register is, It's where the heat comes out of the floor or wall. ;-) > can't explain how basic sorts > work or why you would even want to know. In my opinion, > the most evil phrase to come out of a software engineer's > mouth is "I don't want to have to think about...". Yup, Rule of thumb, but that's supposed to come with experience, experience from knowledge and mistakes (10 aw sh*ts to 1 at-a-boy). Actually these containers/abstractions make the work possible (especially in networking). And I forget my sorts but I know why (complexity) but that won't get me a job anymore (and that terrifies me). > it's all abstracted away. You get a "container class" > with "iterators" and "find" methods and you're all set. > Not fast enough? Throw more hardware at it. Corporations don't want engineers, they want drones and with AI they'll get just that (save that rant for another day). It's the march of progress ... -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry(a)linuxha.com http://www.linuxha.com/ Main site http://linuxha.blogspot.com/ My HA Blog Author of: Linux Smart Homes For Dummies

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] OT: people don't understand computers anymore
by Dean Notarnicola 07 Jun '16

07 Jun '16

Bill, completely agreed. The depressing result is that, without underlying knowledge of the systems they are programming, these "software engineers" have no idea how to troubleshoot an issue beyond their code, or how to code efficiently. This is not an entirely new phenomenon. I knew plenty of Cobol programmers back in the day who knew practically zero about how or why the underlying systems worked. The best programmers I have known also had a very good understanding of the hardware and communication channels. On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 2:03 PM, Bill Sudbrink via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic(a)lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote: > Neil Cherry wrote: > > I'm a bit old school, can't quite understand how > > those in computers can't understand the underlying > > principles of the computer (hardware and software). > > But along those same lines we're abstracting so > > much of this that we don't need to understand it > > that well. > > It's a bit astonishing to me too. We get job candidates > with CS degrees from reputable universities who don't > know what a register is, can't explain how basic sorts > work or why you would even want to know. In my opinion, > the most evil phrase to come out of a software engineer's > mouth is "I don't want to have to think about...". Yup, > it's all abstracted away. You get a "container class" > with "iterators" and "find" methods and you're all set. > Not fast enough? Throw more hardware at it. > > This is raising my blood pressure... gotta stop. > > Bill S. > > > >

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] OT: people don't understand computers anymore
by chrisjpf33＠gmail.com 07 Jun '16

07 Jun '16

And that is why we have garbage software today! On Jun 7, 2016, at 2:03 PM, Bill Sudbrink via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic(a)lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote: Neil Cherry wrote: > I'm a bit old school, can't quite understand how > those in computers can't understand the underlying > principles of the computer (hardware and software). > But along those same lines we're abstracting so > much of this that we don't need to understand it > that well. It's a bit astonishing to me too. We get job candidates with CS degrees from reputable universities who don't know what a register is, can't explain how basic sorts work or why you would even want to know. In my opinion, the most evil phrase to come out of a software engineer's mouth is "I don't want to have to think about...". Yup, it's all abstracted away. You get a "container class" with "iterators" and "find" methods and you're all set. Not fast enough? Throw more hardware at it. This is raising my blood pressure... gotta stop. Bill S.

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] OT: people don't understand computers anymore
by VAXman＠tmesis.org 07 Jun '16

07 Jun '16

Christian Liendo via vcf-midatlantic writes: >> I liken the general lack of knowledge about the inner working of >computers to the general lack of knowledge of automobile internals > >Thank you I was going to use the same analogy. It's because they've become an appliance. You don't need to know how TV works to watch it and, in the same vein, you don't need to know how a computer works to use it either. Also, the GUI -- guarantee user ignorance -- has, IMNSHO, done much to remove the user from the system. And then, there's the education system. Kids come out of college without any understanding of how to program but, oh boy, they know all of the syntactical nuances of the latest trendy language. Assembly programming should be one of their mandatory classes. There, they will need to think through creation of an algorithm using basic computer functions. Me? I was an EE. Never to any programming classes. It was expected of us to learn it to solve EE problems. I really see no merit to teaching some programming lingo but I do see merit in developing a logical/programming mindset to get from point A (input) the pot B (output).

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Big news tomorrow night :)
by Evan Koblentz 07 Jun '16

07 Jun '16

We're going to make a big announcement tomorrow night. Stay tuned!

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] pickup in DC?
by VAXman＠tmesis.org 07 Jun '16

07 Jun '16

Ethan via vcf-midatlantic writes: >> If Bob is unable to pick the item up I might be able to help. I'm in > >Springfield, but work in Herndon. > -J > >I am in Chantilly, VA which is outside of DC. Don't make it into the >city very often. > >Still have a 40 watt 532nm YAG laser in the garage waiting for someone >to come pick it up from Arizona. Grrr. I'll come pick that up! ;)

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] pickup in DC?
by J. Alexander Jacocks 07 Jun '16

07 Jun '16

And I'm on the edge of the area, in Queenstown, MD, though I'm originally from Montgomery County, and work (sometimes) in Tyson's Corner. - Alex On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 11:55 AM, Bill Sudbrink via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic(a)lists.vintagecomputerfederation.org> wrote: > Bob Flanders wrote: > > Did we already discuss this? > > We've tried before to figure out the "DC area > subgroup"... > > I'm in Silver Spring, David G is in Bethesda... > > Bill S. > > >

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