- vcf-midatlantic - lists.vcfed.org

mini computers wanted.
by Bill Degnan 31 Dec '24

31 Dec '24

DEC PDP-9 Computer Automation PDC-816 Decade DCC 70/2 EAI 640 EMR 6130 Hewlett Packard 2116B Honeywell DDP-516 Interdata Model 3 IBM 1130 Lockheed MAC-16 Raytheon 703 Scientific Control SCC-4700 SEL 810A Varian 620 i thanks. Happy to pick up. Happy New Year. Bill

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] PDP-8/L restoration
by Chris Fandt 30 Dec '24

30 Dec '24

Hey Mike, Thanks for your response! Yeah, I sure do need to catch up on stuff. Back in the 80s when I was at Bausch & Lomb Analytical Systems Division, I could quote to you specs about nearly any 8-bit and a few 16-bit CPUs extant at the time. I did digital design and competitive analysis of competitor's products and have forgotten more since then than I can recall nowadays, doggone it. Since then, I've been working in the machine tool control realm and, later till retirement, electrical contact physics at Cummins Inc. So, I want to tutor myself on FPGA tech and the available (and free :-) ) programmings apps as part of catching up, amongst a lot of other stuff. At least the ARM processor architecture is rather standardized now such that the RasPi and other modern solutions can be understood and readily adapted without spending time and financial resources on learning nuances of yet another CPU architecture. Never let yourself just sit and get 'rusty' in retirement. I'm sure I'll bug the list once in a while on some of the old hardware questions. Kind regards, -Chris F. On 12/28/2024 11:41 AM, Mike Rieker via vcf-midatlantic wrote: Hi Chris, The Zynq is a processor chip like a BCM used on a RaspberryPI but instead of simple GPIO, it has a big FGPA 'fabric' between its internal ARM processor and GPIO pins. The ZTurn is a particular board that contains a Zynq chip and brings out 90+ pins to connectors on the back. So it is well suited to interface to a processor's IO and memory busses. You can write Verilog or VHDL to program the FPGA to look like the device registers, then the ARM can do the IO simulation and update the device registers. Mike -- ================================================================ Christian R Fandt Jamestown, NY 14701 > Electrical/Electronic Collector & Historian: Radios, Early Computers, Test Equipment > Radio restorations: Pre-1970s Automotive & Home radios > Retired engineer/consultant on electrical/electronic contact physics -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com

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Book: Too Much Fun: The Five Lives of the Commodore 64 Computer
by Jeffrey Brace 30 Dec '24

30 Dec '24

I just found out about a new book released on December 10, 2024: Too Much Fun: The Five Lives of the Commodore 64 Computer by Jasper Juul. I haven't gotten the book yet, but I really like the premise. Has anyone gotten this book? Take care! Jeff Brace VCF National Board Member Chairman & Vice President VCF East Showrunner MARCH Fundraising Manager Vintage Computer Federation is a 501c3 charity https://vcfed.org/ <http://www.vcfed.org/> jeffrey(a)vcfed.org

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OT: Collective Access Software
by Martin A. Flynn 29 Dec '24

29 Dec '24

If your computer museum is using CA, please contact me off list at: martin.flynn(a)infoage.org Specifically interested in metadata configuration and if any of the profiles provided worked for your organization out of the box. https://manual.collectiveaccess.org/providence/user/editing/metadataelement… Cheers! Martin

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Update Re: A 4004 Based Microcomputer the Comstar System 4
by Herbert Johnson 29 Dec '24

29 Dec '24

Christian, you and I often disagree on things like this - what something is or isn't, how to describe it - because you and I are of different ages and have different backgrounds. These things, they happened in my early working engineering lifetime; for you they are well before you were born; i think that's a noteworthy difference. We have other differences. These are not criticisms, I'm stating empirical conditions. So you and I will not likely agree, that is a statistical estimate, again not a criticism. So: the previous posting you reference, is likely the thread of Jan 10 2024 "A 4004 Based Microcomputer the Comstar System 4". YOu and I and others posted at length. Web access to the vcf-midatlantic list will provide that content to anyone interested. Comstar apparently made a number of things. IN the prior discussion it emerged that Comstar produced a programming product, and a controlling product. That variety of items was part of the confusion about which thing is/was in discussion, and what to call those things. Whether some of them are controllers, some of them are computers, some are both? Those are just words, descriptors, given by Intel or Comstar or someone for some purpose of communicating something. We can guess at their intentions, based on content we can read retrospectively and individually interpret. From both my first-hand experiences in the 1970's, and my retrospective experiences decades later, I say the following. Lots of things in the 70's era were called "computers", because it was a shorthand way of saying some thing was making decisions and taking actions and producing some kind of information. That was in the way people of the era, were generally aware that "computers" of other sorts, were doing those sorts of things. And, those people who wrote, they wanted to get some kind of idea across to people, in few words, because it suited their purposes. We can guess at those purposes based on context - but to-my-point, I bring a different view of context to the situation, than Christian does, Likely others have their view-of-contexts, and different sets of evidence. But if you Christian insist that if Comstar or Intel calls something "a computer", that makes it a computer in some other ways? or is official in some fashion? that goes from reportage to judgement. Judgement is fine when backed by evidence. If you insist that a literal reference is conclusive, "you win", Intel and Comstar called some things computers, they are the experts, therefore it is so. That's a logic I am guessing you are employing. Myself, I have other "logics" which I consider, and other evidences and interpretations. The quote you post about the bottle-loading machine, is from an Intel ad in Electronics Magazine page 44-45. It does not name the Comstar 4 literally. The three paragraphs about Comstar's product, reference "an Intel micro computer" (more on that shortly) and "The little computer in a 6" x 6" x 1 1/2" space" which apparently is the Comstar product. Do you see a Comstar 4 named device on the photo of the bottling machine? or is the Comstar 4 item you have of that size? The three paragraphs also say "Comstar estimates the micro computer halved the cost of the control portion of this system". Does that mean that Comstar made a control-er? Or did Comstar replace a control-something with a computer-something? The ad itself, has a title in very large letters: "Intel Micro Computers". The two-page ad has four sections titled "Make point of sale terminals", "make compact business machines", "do process control", "do data communications processing". The Comstar product is under "control". Doesn't that suggest, the Comstar is a "process control-ler", if not part of a process controller? The data communications section of the ad, refers to a "Bekins controller" used by Action Communications Systems. Apparently the two companies with direct help from Intel, literally used Intel's SIM4-02 (4004 prototype boards) and "Intel micro computers" (presumably 4004 processor based). Again, Intel refers to controllers made from microprocessors, that's my reasonable interpretation. The other two sections refer to terminals made from Intel micro computers and PROMs, and a "general-purpose data processing machine" (business data entry and sorting, simple accounting) made from INtel micro computers, Intel's PROMs and RAMs. What's the point of the ad? In my opinion, based on my presence as a student electrical engineer at the time the ad was produced, and my subsequent EE knowledge thereafter: The point of the ad was that engineers can use Intel's micro computers - microprocessor chips, PROMs, RAMs, and development tools collectively referenced as MCS-4 and MCS-8 systems - to produce products of the era which previously were made from mechanical or small-scale-digital logic (TTL, DTL chips). Those products were things like point-of-sale terminals, data-processing machines, process controlling machines, and data communication systems. Intel references prior and familiar situations - people worked POS cash-registers, did data entry, ran data comm equipment, and worked in factories using process-controllers. Intel's ad, was talking to engineers of those systems. Not the end users I just mentioned, who would not be reading Electronics, a trade magazine. None of these examples - NONE - are general purpose computers used by end-users entering programs from a selection of programs, to perform a variety of tasks as determined by the end user. NONE! The end-use was determined by engineers/technicians, working for companies which sold the completed product for repetitive use only. The final products, were sold to another company, which employed people for the repetitive use. The day-to-day users of these products, did one thing only - data entry or data-communications or bottle-loading or cafeteria food-sales. Zero - Z-E-R-O - end-user "computing". So I call out the difference between some device that someone in the 1970's called "a computer" of some sort; and the idea about a class of devices that are used "as computers" in the ways I just suggested constitute "computing" by end users. That's my read, my interpretation, the contexts I considered. That's the requested help I provide under the terms given by Christian at the end of his post. I'm not categorically "better at research", that's argumentative. I did put in some time today, a few hours. I bring different things in different quantities "to the table". I regret if my views create some personal friction, which is why I am reluctant to provide them. But I have a point to make about "computers" of that era, which is of considerable interest to me. Regards Herb Johnson still not a bot > Christian Liendo cliendo at gmail.com > Thu Dec 26 21:17:24 UTC 2024 > > I posted about some research on the 4004 based computer that I found > and I remember there was some concern that what I had was not in fact > a computer, but a controller. > > So I have been digging a bit more and I think I found something > interesting to support that the Compstar was a "Micro Computer" > > Intel used the System 4 in their own advertising calling it a "Micro Computer" > > In The Intel MCS 4 User Manual Feb 1973 page 171 and in Electronics > Magazine Jan 1973, they promote the 4004 and 8008 and use the System 4 > as an example. > > http://www.bitsavers.org/components/intel/MCS4/MCS-4_UsersManual_Feb73.pdf > > https://www.worldradiohistory.com/Archive-Electronics/70s/73/Electronics-19… > >>From the sources: > > "An Intel micro computer does all the thinking for this automatic > bottle-loading machine. The micro computer, built by Comstar > Corporation of Edina, Minnesota, for Conveyor Specialities, tells the > machine how to load bottles of different sizes and when to perform > each step in the loading process. > > So I am still working on this but I don't have a lot of time. If > anyone wants to join in or knows someone who is better at research > than I would could use the help > > Thanks, Chris -- Herbert R. Johnson, New Jersey USA https://www.retrotechnology.com OR .net preserve, recover, restore 1970's computing email: hjohnson AT retrotechnology DOT com or try later herbjohnson AT comcast DOT net

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] PDP-8/L restoration
by Ethan Dicks 28 Dec '24

28 Dec '24

On Sat, Dec 28, 2024 at 12:14 PM Mike Rieker via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic(a)lists.vcfed.org> wrote: > Hi Ethan, > > I am going to make some 'V2.0' Zynq boards, basically heavier drivers to > work against the 8/L's pullups... > > If you want, I can have some extras made. I have the PCB company assemble > the surface mount parts then I solder the through-hole stuff myself. Hi, Mike, I'm tentatively interested in 1-2 board sets, depending on price. I can do SMT myself but I understand that these days, the incremental cost to have things pre-stuffed is pretty low (the RK05 emulator comes with all SMT populated and the kit is adding through-hole parts). I have enough projects on my queue that ordering blank boards is a barrier to getting started. I have a drawer (and to-do spreadsheet) for PCBs on hand in various stages of construction. > The ZTurn-7020 boards come from MYIR and are around $150. Good to know the scale of the cost. Given that I've wanted to boot OS/8 on an -8/L since I was 16, I think I can allocate that level of funding. If you share some numbers I can gauge if I would want 1 or 2. Thanks! Cheers, -ethan

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] PDP-8/L restoration
by Dave McGuire 28 Dec '24

28 Dec '24

On 12/28/24 12:14, Mike Rieker via vcf-midatlantic wrote: > If you want, I can have some extras made. I have the PCB company > assemble the surface mount parts then I solder the through-hole stuff > myself. I'd have to see how much extra it costs to have more boards > made. If you want (because of my love of all things PDP-8), I'm happy to handle the surface mount parts gratis if you want to pass a run of these through me, if that would make this any easier. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] PDP-8/L restoration
by Ethan Dicks 28 Dec '24

28 Dec '24

On Thu, Dec 26, 2024 at 9:03 PM Mike Rieker via vcf-midatlantic <vcf-midatlantic(a)lists.vcfed.org> wrote: > If anyone is interested Seriously interested! I have been trying to add mass storage to my PDP-8/L since I got it in High School in the early 80s! There were only a few options then and I never encountered any for sale at a price I could approach. > I finished a Zynq thing that plugs into the back > of my PDP-8/L to provide disk, tape, tty functionality. The thing > actually boots and runs OS/8! Outstanding! That's been my goal all along - boot OS/8 on an -8/L. > Anyway I made an Hackaday page > https://hackaday.io/project/202048-pdp-8x2fl-enhancements Nice photos. Would love to see more detail. > About all I had to do to get the PDP running was replace a few (half dozen > or so) 7400 series chips, some corroded diodes on the core stack and a > power resistor. Hasn't missed a beat since. Sure. In my years of maintaining gear from that era, I find a lot of dead 7474 and 7440 and some dead 7420 make up 90% of the bad ICs. Every once in a while, a diode. > I don't know if any of you have interest in this sort of thing. I don't > have a PDP-8/I but it might not be too difficult to adapt it to one of > those or other PDP-8s and maybe 11s. I think most PDP-8/i are negibus, and the -8/i itself is expecting to implement memory expansion to 8K internally (including using an M702 "memory detector" card in a particular slot). I have a 4K -8/i that I tried to upgrade to 8K when i was still learning (and lacking in the PDF scans we have now) that I was unsuccessful with due to my lack of deep understanding of how all the parts work (G020 -> G021 was one I totally missed as a teenager). It might be easier on an -8/i to remove the original memory parts and just use the Zynq board for all 32K (or do what was somewhat common back then, 8K with DEC parts and "external 24K" which _was_ done with non-DEC expansion boxes). I would definitely love to learn how to get one or two of these. Not as interested in the frontpanel emulators. I can see how they are handy but I'd prefer the original look. Thanks for sharing! -ethan

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Re: [vcf-midatlantic] PDP-8/L restoration
by wmrieker＠nii.net 28 Dec '24

28 Dec '24

> Hi Mike, > > You wrote below: "I don't know if any of you have interest in this sort > of thing." > > Wow ... Are you kidding!!Â :-) > > I'm sure I speak for at least a few others on this list who love to hack > (in the old, more correct usage of the term) hardware and/or software in > order to non-maliciously learn stuff, restore something important, > and/or at least bring something back to life. Reverse Engineering and > creation of solutions at its best and most fun :-) > > I retired back in March (finally, at age 70) from the major USA-based > independent diesel engine maker and plan to work thru a bunch of DEC > PDP-11 gear, my DG Nova 1200, IBM 9370 w/9375-60 Processor, several > ASR-33 TTYs, plus a flock of other radio & TV restoration and ham radio > projects which have been in 'idle storage' for 10-to-50 years. This > email subject matter will definitely apply -depending, of course, upon > how my wife and I stretch our SS checks, a modest pension and random > restoration and consulting work. > > I need to catch-up on what that 'Zyng thing' is you mention and other > recent hardware/software items like this which have appeared in the last > decade or so. Hi Chris, The Zynq is a processor chip like a BCM used on a RaspberryPI but instead of simple GPIO, it has a big FGPA 'fabric' between its internal ARM processor and GPIO pins. The ZTurn is a particular board that contains a Zynq chip and brings out 90+ pins to connectors on the back. So it is well suited to interface to a processor's IO and memory busses. You can write Verilog or VHDL to program the FPGA to look like the device registers, then the ARM can do the IO simulation and update the device registers. Mike > > I personally encourage keeping activity like this going, folks! > > Thanks much and best regards, > Â Â Â -Chris F. > > > On 12/26/2024 9:02 PM, Mike Rieker via vcf-midatlantic wrote: > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Hey All, > > If anyone is interested, I finished a Zynq thing that plugs into the back > of my PDP-8/L to provide disk, tape, tty functionality. The thing > actually boots and runs OS/8! > > Anyway I made an Hackaday page > https://hackaday.io/project/202048-pdp-8x2fl-enhancements > > There is also a simple RasPI based board that plugs in the front panel > slot to do automated testing. > > About all I had to do to get the PDP running was replace a few (half dozen > or so) 7400 series chips, some corroded diodes on the core stack and a > power resistor. Hasn't missed a beat since. > > I don't know if any of you have interest in this sort of thing. I don't > have a PDP-8/I but it might not be too difficult to adapt it to one of > those or other PDP-8s and maybe 11s. > > Mike > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > -- > ================================================================ > Christian R Fandt > Jamestown, NY 14701 > > Electrical/Electronic Collector & Historian: Radios, Early > Computers, Test Equipment > > Radio restorations: Pre-1970s Automotive & Home radios > > Retired engineer/consultant on electrical/electronic contact physics > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com >

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Next Repair Workshop Jan 11-12, 2025
by Jeffrey Brace 28 Dec '24

28 Dec '24

Sign up for the next repair workshop is here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1IXvycZsSKrcEqG0CHhikN3bgRwIA0tOm1hB… Keep in mind that we are moving the repair workshops to 9032-A and won't be in 9059 going forward. Take care! Jeff Brace VCF National Board Member Chairman & Vice President VCF East Showrunner MARCH Fundraising Manager Vintage Computer Federation is a 501c3 charity https://vcfed.org/ <http://www.vcfed.org/> jeffrey(a)vcfed.org

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